Hi All, We are facing that dilemma here in St. Louis with our HAP now, and had a similar dilemma with the indoor and outdoor gardeners a couple of years ago. As my club's HAP chairman, I had to come up with the solution. Here is my reasoning and what I came up with. First of all, you have to consider that we are all in this for fun and relaxation. There will always be a few people who get carried away with any kind of competition. We even caught one member buying baby fish and turning them in for the BAP just so he could stay even with another member who was breeding fish like there was huge money involved! In our HAP, we were giving the same points to everyone, regardless of whether they propagated indoors or out, with standard equipment or high tech equipment and several folks were complaining that it wasn't fair. After talking the situation over with several long time members and our BOD, we decided that the awards really are just for personal achievement and mean different things to different people. We all know who the people are that have no interest in learning more about the fish or plants involved, and they know, too. They just want the award. It really means nothing more to them than any other trophy. They are just like the guys who want to be on the winning team, just to be able to say they were on that team, even if they only sit on the bench. Once they get it, they move on to something else. The other folks keep plugging away at it. The ones that keep plugging it away are the ones that get something out of the process, and the award is only secondary to the achievement. As for our situation, I am far and away my club's most prolific Aquatic Gardener. I have propagated more than twice as many species as any other member in my club; all indoors, all without the benefit of high tech gadgets or CO2 - many of those by seed. I am not saying this to brag, but to make a point. We have a few members right now that are competing heavily in our HAP while using CO2, super intense lighting, and every chemical imaginable. I don't begrudge them this. Their competition has invigorated our program and brought many new and exciting species to the club in their search for points. And I know that once they reach the requirements for Grand Master (our highest award right now), all three of them will fade away, looking for something else, just like they did with the BAP program when they reached Grand Master - none of them has turned in anything since they reached the award. I and many other members will still be there enjoying it, with the benefit of many new species that we otherwise might not have been able to acquire. In short, I see it as a good thing, not a bad thing. What I did was this, I reduced the points by one level for getting blooms outdoors, since this really requires no skill beyond remembering to feed the plants. That's it. There is still much work involved in getting plants to grow and bloom indoors, and even more work involved in getting those plants to "go to seed" and then having those seeds germinate and grow. Whether or not there is a high tech approach, it still won't happen without work on the part of the member. I think that those using the high-tech approach are just creating different challenges for themselves than those who use the low tech approach. They need to monitor many processes and nutrient levels that I don't. While I'm learning about the plant's structures and requirements, they are learning about how to fight algae blooms that occur overnight due to a nutrient imbalance. While I'm sitting there enjoying the tanks, they are having to keep the plants trimmed on a regular schedule. If they don't, they can have a huge mess to clean up. I see merit in both the low tech and the high tech approach. There are just different challenges to face, and folks need to realize that. Maybe some education is in order. I think that what the high-tech approach does is improve the speed of growth in most plants and increase the chance that others will be able to adapt to captivity. How can that be a bad thing? One idea I am still toying with is separating entirely the indoor and outdoor gardeners into two different programs, but I won't separate or punish the high tech aquatic gardeners from the low tech gardeners. They are just facing the same challenges in different ways. That's my two cents worth! : ) Take care, Mike --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html ---