Hey You want nice acid soft water.... move to the adirondacks.... couple of my tanks have a pH of 4.4 and i've had it down as low as 3.9 without doing anything to it but heavy on the plants and not as many water changes. I know bad thing to do , but it happens.... although the fish loved it!! Got my N. Transvestitus to spawn in that water. Even had fry hatch in that water. With a water out of the tap at 6.0 pH and <10ppm hardness, it's easy to get a pH in that 5.0 range. John ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com.