In a message dated 99-01-16 12:59:05 EST, you write: << I consider a fish bred only when it produces viable fry that can grow to maturity. If they spawn and only produce eggs or non-viable fry, I consider this spawning not breeding. So from my why of thinking you didn't breed checkerboards until they were placed in soft water >> Hi Mike I agree totally but my point was that of the 50 or so species of black water fish I have been successful with, only a handful have needed to have soft water. I feel I do more harm when I try to alter the conditions due to my own laziness at monitoring the potentially rapidly changing conditions. Case in point, when the D. filamentosus spawned successfully the pH had dropped to 3.5, I was surprised they still had fins. Tom W. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!