As a result of this recent discussion, I would like to see a list of qualifications to become a "serious" aquarist. Because after 10 years, spawning 50+ species and currently keeping 30 tanks, I apparently don't qualify because I artificially rear rams. Quite a lot of them by the way. I probably have several hundred golds and german blues swimming around as well as a few spawns in the process of hatching. (to address another note, I have been reliably informed that these "damaged" offspring do raise their own young). The other apparent no no for a "serious" aquarist is sully themselves by doing anything that borders on commercial. Now, for a number of years I spawned a lot of fish that I liked that had no, or very limited, commercial value. So, I decided it would be nice to finally make this "hobby" at least earn it's keep. I thought about angels and discus and some other fish. But, I noticed a great lack of people in the States raising rams and all that seemed to be available was the crap coming out of Asia. As a result, I will probably ship out 100 this month, maybe 150 next and then over 200 a month after that and up from there. As far as this question of serious goes, it seems to me that it takes a fair amount of seriousness to maintain bloodlines, acceptable breeding conditions, water quality and everything else that goes with longterm maintenance of a species of fish. I have never really been impressed with the ability to get a species to spawn one time. One time is luck, more than one time is skill. By that I mean that a species may spawn and the keeper have no good idea what the environmental conditions needed to be other than that they were somehow right at the correct moment. And for a discussion about being a "serious" aquarist, go sit down and have a talk about bloodlines and genetics with a commercial angel breeder. It will always amaze me how anal aquarist get about "their" fish. It was like that when I raised CA cichlids and it was like that when I raised African cichlids. Joel WasDyke ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!