RE: [GSAS-Member] Algae control

["Hess, Clay A" <clay.a.hess@boeing.com>]

Mark,

Yes, I agree that plants make a great nutrient "mop" provided you do not
overburden the "mop".  The trick I believe is to provide the right
amount of nutrients in the proper setting.  Hmmmm, sounds like  an
ecosystem.  I would hate for someone reading this to think it is an easy
task to just stuff some Pond tabs into their gravel and expect the
ultimate in algae free, lush, plant filled tanks to blossom to life.
You have worked long and hard to come up with a balance that works for
your tanks.  
My only point is: "There is no one sure-fire method to gaining instant
satisfaction in life".  Of course, the corallary to this is: "There is
no one sure-fire method to gaining instant algae free, lush, plant
filled tanks".  I am hoping that people will read these ramblings and
carefully use the information to come up with their own best approach
for their aquarium "ecosystem". (and hopefully share it with all of us
too)
I really appreciate the information that people like yourself offer to
the club and always enjoy seeing what works for others.  Keep up the
great aquaculturing......and I have seen your plants and agree they are
fantastic.

Clay

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Pearlscott [mailto:mark@pearlscott.com] 
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 10:03 AM
To: Greater Seattle Aquarium Society member chat
Subject: Re: [GSAS-Member] Algae control


Clay,

I agree with you that phosphates will leak out, but the rate at which 
they leak out of the substrate will obviously be slower than if you just

pour it into the water column.  With the reduced rate (leakage) your 
plants have an easier time of soaking it all up (if other nutrients are 
in balance) before algae can get to it.  (For some reason higher plants 
seem to be able to out compete lower plants if the balance is tipped in 
their favor.)  Of course if you don't have some sort of nutrient "mop," 
I would expect the tank to reach an equilibrium, as you suggest.

In my experience, the plants keep the tank in a "tentative" equilibrium 
where a certain amount of each nutrient is taken up at a certain rate 
(by the plants), while each is supplied to the tank at a certain rate 
(by the human)... ending up with a tank full of fast growing weeds... I 
mean plants.  ;)

This method seems to work well... and people who know me, know I brought

it lots of nice, large plants to the auctions and such.  Though, what I 
discovered is that over time, the mulm that builds up in the gravel bed 
was enough to supply the phosphates, and I stopped adding it to the 
substrate.  Initially it seemed to be needed however.  YMMV.

Mark Pearlscott


Hess, Clay A wrote:

>The idea that one can "minimize leakage of phosphates into the water 
>column" is rather entertaining.  From my memory of the chemistry
classes I took in school, I would expect that any and all elements in a
tank of water will eventually reach equilibrium.  Now, if I was going to
plant a tank and only have it functioning for a short time I could see
where "buried deep in the substrate" might be an effective way to
"minimize leakage of phosphates into the water column".  However, since
most of us operate our tanks for more than a few weeks or months, I
cannot see how the "buried deep in the substrate"  plan of approach will
work.  Within weeks or months (and quite likely less time) I would
expect all the elements in a fish tank to reach some form of equilibrium
regardless of how "deep" one buries the elements.
>
>If you think about this, imagine trying to place a chlorine tablet 
>"deep" enough in your substrate to keep it from killing your fish 
>(please don't try this).  Likely that won't happen.  Now, I am not 
>proposing that phosphates will dissolve in water at the same rate as 
>chlorine.  Yet, as noted, over time (and we have lots of time)the 
>phosphates will dissolve and come to some equilibrium state throughout 
>the tank regardless of how "deep" one buries the material.  Of course, 
>this is assuming a standard aquarium, I suppose if one had infinite 
>depth to their substrate you could place the offending materials "deep"

>enough to eliminate the threat in your, or your fishes, lifetime.
>
>Soooo, there is my two cents worth.  I am not saying that the 
>referenced paper does not have some merit, simply that some of the 
>logic it provides could be a bit flawed.  Careful how you apply what 
>you read.
>
>Clay
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: John Ruhland [mailto:john@drruhland.com]
>Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 9:06 AM
>To: Greater Seattle Aquarium Society member chat
>Subject: Re: [GSAS-Member] Algae control
>
>
>Thank you Mark. That paper was most useful. I am pasting in below some
>of the points from the paper that I will try, including removing the 
>carbon filtration and discontinuing use of Aquasafe. Maybe Paul's 
>response which I am awaiting will further elucidate important 
>considerations.
>John
>
>
>
>
>(c) Enriched substrates are probably the best means of supplying
>phosphates to plants provided steps are taken to minimize the leakage 
>of phosphate into the water column. Substrate fertilizers such as Pond 
>Tabs should be buried deep in the substrate where their nutrients are 
>preferentially available to plant roots. Substrate circulation should 
>be minimized to prevent phosphate from leaching too rapidly into the 
>water column. Avoid gravel cleaning and other substrate disturbances if

>at all possible. Eliminating substrate circulation completely would not

>be desirable (even if it were possible) because supplementary 
>fertilizers are usually added to the water and must be transported to 
>the roots somehow.
>
>Tap water is not recommended as a source of trace elements because it
>may be deficient in one or more elements, and rapid plant growth is 
>likely to deplete the elements far more quickly than they can be 
>replaced.
>
>  Certain water treatment products (Aquasafe, NovAqua) should be 
>avoided
>as they bind metals (including iron), making them unavailable to 
>plants. They may also contain phosphate buffers. Simple dechlorinators 
>or products such as Amquel are a better choice for treating tap water 
>during water changes.
>
>  Carbon filtration may remove necessary trace elements from the water.
>With regular water changes and good plant growth, carbon filtration is 
>not necessary and should be omitted.
>
>  (i) As a general principle, avoid adding fertilizers, water
>treatments, or any other products to one's aquarium unless the products

>completely disclose the concentration of each ingredient present. 
>Otherwise, there is no way to knowing what effect (if any!) these 
>products will have on the aquarium's inhabitants.
>
>
>
>
>On Mar 17, 2005, at 7:52 AM, Mark Pearlscott wrote:
>
>  
>
>>John,
>>
>>Since this seems to be a hot topic, and my guess is that lots of 
>>people don't know lots about it just yet, here is the original paper 
>>on PMDD (http://www.cam.org/~tomlins/algae.html).  This should give 
>>you all the information you need to know to get your tank in balance 
>>and all plants growing like weeds.  If you need a supplier of 
>>nutrients, try Eco-Elements (I'm pretty sure that is the name), a 
>>hydroponic supply store up here in Shoreline (off 175th and I-5).
>>
>>My experience with green water is that the tank is "usually" deficient

>>in Nitrogen.  So, going through the method of checking what is 
>>missing, you might want to confirm this for your tank before adding 
>>Nitrogen (which seems counter-intuitive).
>>
>>With that being said, you might just want something fast and easy, and

>>there is such a ting.  Keep the micron filter or paper filter in you 
>>canister, and add a "particulate clumper" to the tank (available at 
>>most pet stores).  With the clumper added, all the little pieces of 
>>algae stick together, and then are able to be filtered out by the 
>>filter.  Just make sure to clean your filter after the algae has come 
>>out of the water column.  I had a friend use this, and it was gone in 
>>one afternoon.
>>
>>Good luck,
>>
>>Mark Pearlscott
>>
>>
>>
>>John Ruhland wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>In the past few weeks, I've had an algae problem as well. Rather than

>>>coating any surfaces, it simply turns my water green. While it is a
>>>pretty color, I am unable to see anything more than about 4-5 inches

>>>from the glass. I've added two filters to the original filter. The  
>>>pleated paper filter that came with the Magnum canister filter, and  
>>>that I was told would turn water crystal clear, has not filtered out

>>>anything, so it must be only a few microns in size. Besides the 
>>>magnum  filter, I have a Magnum HOT, and a Marineland Emperor with 
>>>Bio-wheel.  At first I changed the water every day or two and added a

>>>bit of salt,  thinking that would slow the growth of algae, but since

>>>that did not  show much improvement, I decided to wait it out. Any 
>>>recommendations  would be helpful. Anita recommended getting tiny 
>>>organisms that would  eat the algae.
>>>
>>>Fortunately, the fish seem to be doing alright.
>>>Thank you,
>>>John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>It is the tank where I put most of the plants I got at the plant sale

>>>as well. On Mar 16, 2005, at 2:56 PM, auntie.fran@netzero.net wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Thanks, Barbie...I'll see if I can find one.  There's a synodontis 
>>>>in  the tank -- got him as a bottom feeder -- but I'm not certain 
>>>>which  type, but he sure doesn't eat algae!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional.
>>>>
>>>>-- "Barbie" <barbie@fishaholics.org> wrote:
>>>>Synodontis petricola eat hair algae also, and would be much more 
>>>>suited to life with african cichlids, IMO.
>>>>
>>>>Barbie
>>>>
>>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>>  From: auntie.fran@netzero.com
>>>>  To: gsas-member@thekrib.com
>>>>  Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 11:11 AM
>>>>  Subject: Re: [GSAS-Member] Algae control
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Will apple snails eat beard algae?  And, will they survive in a 
>>>>tank  with blue daffodils and yellow labs?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional.
>>>>
>>>>  -- "A JACOBSON" <amjacobson52@msn.com> wrote:
>>>>  Shortly after the plant auction I was setting up a 55 gallon tank 
>>>>and cannibalizing plants from my other tanks to fill it.  Sure 
>>>>enough,  the tank I took the most plants out of suddenly was being 
>>>>overwhelmed  by several types of algae.  I immediately crammed in a 
>>>>bunch more  plants and tossed in a baby SAE.  The increased plant 
>>>>load stopped the  algae spread in its tracks, and now the baby SAE, 
>>>>the 5 otos, the  large SAE, and the snails I no longer bother, are 
>>>>slowly cleaning the  algae from the plants -- I'm also snipping off 
>>>>leaves that are  completely algae-covered, so they can concentrate 
>>>>on only partially  covered leaves.  And it seems to be working.
>>>>
>>>>  I bought a 30 gallon long tank a couple of months ago from someone

>>>>who had let it go downhill.  It had two beautiful pieces of bogwood

>>>>covered with a dwarf java fern, but every leaf was black from
>>>>algae.   Same with the anubias and the sag, and the glass of the 
>>>>aquarium  itself.  Did the same thing.  Cut off the worst leaves
>>>>(and every time  I go in there I trim a little more, giving the new 
>>>>leaves a chance to  grow), tossed in 2 SAE, and added a field of 
>>>>crypts that I bought for  that purpose at the plant auction.  It's 
>>>>not quite there yet (crypts  are still looking pretty forlorn), but 
>>>>it is SOOO much better.  A few  apple snails are surviving, despite 
>>>>the loaches (maybe there are too  big for the loaches?) and they are

>>>>going a yoeman's job of clearing  off the remaining black on the 
>>>>leaves.
>>>>
>>>>  Anita
>>>>    ----- Original Message -----
>>>>    From: welenofsky@comcast.net<mailto:welenofsky@comcast.net>
>>>>    To: GSAS Member<mailto:gsas-member@thekrib.com>
>>>>    Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 6:56 AM
>>>>    Subject: [GSAS-Member] Algae control
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    Since the plant auction, I've had all different types of algae 
>>>>plaguing my tank. What kinds of fish besides SAE will help control 
>>>>it?  Where can I get these fish locally? Does anyone have any SAE or

>>>>other  algae-eating fish they don't want anymore? I have discus in 
>>>>the tank.  I may just take it down and bleach the plants and/or 
>>>>strip the leaves  off.
>>>>
>>>>    Susan
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>>>>        
>>>>
>>>  Dr. John F. Ruhland
>>>The Natural Health Medical Clinic
>>>4002 - 25th Avenue S, Seattle, WA 98108
>>>206-723-4891
>>>www.drruhland.com
>>>
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>>>      
>>>
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>>    
>>
>
> 
> 
>Dr. John F. Ruhland
>The Natural Health Medical Clinic
>4002 - 25th Avenue S, Seattle, WA 98108
>206-723-4891
>www.drruhland.com
>
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