RE: [GSAS-Member] Algae control; Vitamin D

["Paul M. Wallace" <pwallace@u.washington.edu>]

John:

For culturing Daphnia I would start with a bucket and bribe one of the GSAS
members for a seed culture.  I had hydra in my last culture (Fluke tabs
work).  The bucket can also go outside into the sun to make GW when your
tank is clear.  There is a certain killifish nut that had a culture in the
middle of winter going strong!  

The young daphnia are too small for a breeder net so you might have happy
fish and no culture.

So idea one is lots of water changes to get rid of GW (by dilution).  The
other idea is no water changes (so that the excess nutrient gets used up).

Nitrogen is best added via potassium nitrate (?) which can be bought in
solid form (google for complete idea).

Heavy planted tanks might not cycle as too little nitrogen (ammonia,
nitrate, nitrite) can be available to build the required biofilter.  (There
are bacteria on every surface of plants, substrate, wall so not to worry)

-Paul

Where do I get such a culture, and how would I do it simply? Anita had 
suggested adding a sump
tank. Could I put them in a breeder net right in the tank? Of course, 
my hope is the green water clears
when the nitrogen level goes up.

When one overfeeds, the nitrogen levels go up. Is that an OK way to 
increase the levels purposely?
Since the tank is cycled, I think production of toxic levels of ammonia 
are unlikely.
Thanks, John


On Mar 17, 2005, at 3:12 PM, welenofsky@comcast.net wrote:

> Hi John:
>
> I would try to capitalize on the green water situation by adding a 
> daphnia culture to the tank. Free live food!!!!!!!!!
>
> Susan
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
>
>> This discussion has been helpful.
>>
>> Since my Nitrate measures "0," I'll try to raise that. If necessary,
>> I'll then add potassium salts.
>> Magnesium is next, in the form of epsom salts.
>> I recently added calcium carbonate (crushed seashells) to increase the
>> pH, so calcium should
>> be plentiful.
>> My substrate is fluorite.
>> I'm not quite ready to invest time and money in CO2 equipment. If
>> anyone has some used equipment
>> for sale, though, I'd consider it.
>>
>> My canister filter is 2/3 carbon and 1/3 zeollite. I emptied that out
>> this morning. I think the carbon filtration
>> adsorbed a lot of minerals and trace minerals, and the zeolite and
>> carbon absorbed the available nitrogen.
>>
>> My three other tanks have had none of the green water problem. I'm
>> scratching my head trying to remember
>> what I did differently. The zeolite is the only difference that I can
>> think of - I used it because I ran out of carbon,
>> so I topped off the holder with zeolite.
>>
>> If I was looking at deficiencies in people, I'd know better how to
>> correct the imbalances. Considering the genetic
>> similarities between people and fish (and even plants, if I remember
>> correctly), it should be fairly easy to learn
>> what specific nutritional deficiencies look like in fish and plants.
>> Hole-in-the-head disease in Oscars, for instance,
>> is caused by Vitamin D deficiency according to two books (including 
>> the
>> Handbook of Fish Diseases) that I read.
>> Does anyone know if fish create Vitamin D in their "skin" when exposed
>> to the sun, as we do? If so, do any of the
>> available fluorescent lights provide the wavelengths necessary to
>> produce it?
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> On Mar 17, 2005, at 11:25 AM, Paul M. Wallace wrote:
>>
>>> John:
>>>
>>> I agree with everything that has been posted. You need to feed your
>>> plants!
>>> Another version of PMDD is the Estimative Index of Dosing by Tom Barr
>>> http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1 which might be of
>>> interest. In some circles a distinction is made if CO2 injected. For
>>> tanks
>>> without CO2 a "rich" substrate (soil under gravel) can be used so 
>>> that
>>> the
>>> nutrients are in the substrate and not the water column. If CO2 is
>>> used the
>>> rich substrate can be relaxed to something like Fluorite or Eco
>>> Complete and
>>> dosing nutrients into the water column like PMDD or EI.
>>>
>>> -Paul
>>>
>>> Thank you Mark. That paper was most useful. I am pasting in below 
>>> some
>>> of the points from the paper that I will try, including removing the
>>> carbon filtration and discontinuing use of Aquasafe. Maybe Paul's
>>> response which I am awaiting will further elucidate important
>>> considerations.
>>> John
>>>
>>> (c) Enriched substrates are probably the best means of supplying
>>> phosphates to plants provided steps are taken to minimize the leakage
>>> of phosphate into the water column. Substrate fertilizers such as 
>>> Pond
>>> Tabs should be buried deep in the substrate where their nutrients are
>>> preferentially available to plant roots. Substrate circulation should
>>> be minimized to prevent phosphate from leaching too rapidly into the
>>> water column. Avoid gravel cleaning and other substrate disturbances 
>>> if
>>> at all possible. Eliminating substrate circulation completely would 
>>> not
>>> be desirable (even if it were possible) because supplementary
>>> fertilizers are usually added to the water and must be transported to
>>> the roots somehow.
>>>
>>> Tap water is not recommended as a source of trace elements because it
>>> may be deficient in one or more elements, and rapid plant growth is
>>> likely to deplete the elements far more quickly than they can be
>>> replaced.
>>>
>>> Certain water treatment products (Aquasafe, NovAqua) should be
>>> avoided
>>> as they bind metals (including iron), making them unavailable to
>>> plants. They may also contain phosphate buffers. Simple 
>>> dechlorinators
>>> or products such as Amquel are a better choice for treating tap water
>>> during water changes.
>>>
>>> Carbon filtration may remove necessary trace elements from the water.
>>> With regular water changes and good plant growth, carbon filtration 
>>> is
>>> not necessary and should be omitted.
>>>
>>> (i) As a general principle, avoid adding fertilizers, water
>>> treatments, or any other products to one's aquarium unless the 
>>> products
>>> completely disclose the concentration of each ingredient present.
>>> Otherwise, there is no way to knowing what effect (if any!) these
>>> products will have on the aquarium's inhabitants.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 17, 2005, at 7:52 AM, Mark Pearlscott wrote:
>>>
>>>> John,
>>>>
>>>> Since this seems to be a hot topic, and my guess is that lots of
>>>> people don't know lots about it just yet, here is the original paper
>>>> on PMDD (http://www.cam.org/~tomlins/algae.html). This should give
>>>> you all the information you need to know to get your tank in balance
>>>> and all plants growing like weeds. If you need a supplier of
>>>> nutrients, try Eco-Elements (I'm pretty sure that is the name), a
>>>> hydroponic supply store up here in Shoreline (off 175th and I-5).
>>>>
>>>> My experience with green water is that the tank is "usually" 
>>>> deficient
>>>> in Nitrogen. So, going through the method of checking what is
>>>> missing, you might want to confirm this for your tank before adding
>>>> Nitrogen (which seems counter-intuitive).
>>>>
>>>> With that being said, you might just want something fast and easy, 
>>>> and
>>>> there is such a ting. Keep the micron filter or paper filter in you
>>>> canister, and add a "particulate clumper" to the tank (available at
>>>> most pet stores). With the clumper added, all the little pieces of
>>>> algae stick together, and then are able to be filtered out by the
>>>> filter. Just make sure to clean your filter after the algae has come
>>>> out of the water column. I had a friend use this, and it was gone in
>>>> one afternoon.
>>>>
>>>> Good luck,
>>>>
>>>> Mark Pearlscott
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John Ruhland wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In the past few weeks, I've had an algae problem as well. Rather 
>>>>> than
>>>>> coating any surfaces, it simply turns my water green. While it is a
>>>>> pretty color, I am unable to see anything more than about 4-5 
>>>>> inches
>>>>> from the glass. I've added two filters to the original filter. The
>>>>> pleated paper filter that came with the Magnum canister filter, and
>>>>> that I was told would turn water crystal clear, has not filtered 
>>>>> out
>>>>> anything, so it must be only a few microns in size. Besides the
>>>>> magnum filter, I have a Magnum HOT, and a Marineland Emperor with
>>>>> Bio-wheel. At first I changed the water every day or two and added 
>>>>> a
>>>>> bit of salt, thinking that would slow the growth of algae, but 
>>>>> since
>>>>> that did not show much improvement, I decided to wait it out. Any
>>>>> recommendations would be helpful. Anita recommended getting tiny
>>>>> organisms that would eat the algae.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fortunately, the fish seem to be doing alright.
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It is the tank where I put most of the plants I got at the plant 
>>>>> sale
>>>>> as well.
>>>>> On Mar 16, 2005, at 2:56 PM, auntie.fran@netzero.net wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks, Barbie...I'll see if I can find one. There's a synodontis
>>>>>> in the tank -- got him as a bottom feeder -- but I'm not certain
>>>>>> which type, but he sure doesn't eat algae!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- "Barbie" wrote: 
>>>>>> Synodontis petricola eat hair algae also, and would be much more
>>>>>> suited to life with african cichlids, IMO.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Barbie
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: auntie.fran@netzero.com
>>>>>> To: gsas-member@thekrib.com
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 11:11 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [GSAS-Member] Algae control
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Will apple snails eat beard algae? And, will they survive in a
>>>>>> tank with blue daffodils and yellow labs?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- "A JACOBSON" wrote: 
>>>>>> Shortly after the plant auction I was setting up a 55 gallon tank
>>>>>> and cannibalizing plants from my other tanks to fill it. Sure
>>>>>> enough, the tank I took the most plants out of suddenly was being
>>>>>> overwhelmed by several types of algae. I immediately crammed in a
>>>>>> bunch more plants and tossed in a baby SAE. The increased plant
>>>>>> load stopped the algae spread in its tracks, and now the baby SAE,
>>>>>> the 5 otos, the large SAE, and the snails I no longer bother, are
>>>>>> slowly cleaning the algae from the plants -- I'm also snipping off
>>>>>> leaves that are completely algae-covered, so they can concentrate
>>>>>> on only partially covered leaves. And it seems to be working.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I bought a 30 gallon long tank a couple of months ago from someone
>>>>>> who had let it go downhill. It had two beautiful pieces of bogwood
>>>>>> covered with a dwarf java fern, but every leaf was black from
>>>>>> algae. Same with the anubias and the sag, and the glass of the
>>>>>> aquarium itself. Did the same thing. Cut off the worst leaves
>>>>>> (and every time I go in there I trim a little more, giving the new
>>>>>> leaves a chance to grow), tossed in 2 SAE, and added a field of
>>>>>> crypts that I bought for that purpose at the plant auction. It's
>>>>>> not quite there yet (crypts are still looking pretty forlorn), but
>>>>>> it is SOOO much better. A few apple snails are surviving, despite
>>>>>> the loaches (maybe there are too big for the loaches?) and they 
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> going a yoeman's job of clearing off the remaining black on the
>>>>>> leaves.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anita
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: welenofsky@comcast.net
>>>>>> To: GSAS Member
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 6:56 AM
>>>>>> Subject: [GSAS-Member] Algae control
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since the plant auction, I've had all different types of algae
>>>>>> plaguing my tank. What kinds of fish besides SAE will help control
>>>>>> it? Where can I get these fish locally? Does anyone have any SAE 
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> other algae-eating fish they don't want anymore? I have discus in
>>>>>> the tank. I may just take it down and bleach the plants and/or
>>>>>> strip the leaves off.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Susan
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dr. John F. Ruhland
>>>>> The Natural Health Medical Clinic
>>>>> 4002 - 25th Avenue S, Seattle, WA 98108
>>>>> 206-723-4891
>>>>> www.drruhland.com
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr. John F. Ruhland
>>> The Natural Health Medical Clinic
>>> 4002 - 25th Avenue S, Seattle, WA 98108
>>> 206-723-4891
>>> www.drruhland.com
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> Dr. John F. Ruhland
>> The Natural Health Medical Clinic
>> 4002 - 25th Avenue S, Seattle, WA 98108
>> 206-723-4891
>> www.drruhland.com
>>
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Dr. John F. Ruhland
The Natural Health Medical Clinic
4002 - 25th Avenue S, Seattle, WA 98108
206-723-4891
www.drruhland.com

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