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Re: [GSAS-Member] Safe in Tank Acrylic Sandpaper

I would argue that the kind of exposures that are "acceptable" for our fish will vary depending on 
the situation.
For those breeding fish, chemical exposures may be even more of an issue than are mechanical harm to fish. Any substance that may cause damage to RNA or DNA should be avoided in that case. I would recommend waiting much longer than the minimum curing time for silicone sealants, avoiding vinyl hoses, etc.
Items that may harm gills or other organs or tissue are more important to avoid for fish that live a long time. 
Here, long term cumulative damage will impact the longevity of the fish.
For instance, my 3 Leporinus will live well over one decade if they are not harmed while in my care.
Fish that only live a few years probably will not have time to accumulate damage, and thus something like household dust (often high in heavy metals in older homes with old paint), fiberglass (ie. rock wool), etc., may not be of as much concern. Asbestos, fiberglass, and heavy metals can cause harm to both cellular components and organs in humans, and probably also in fish.
I recommend that we avoid easily-avoided exposures. Then the less easily avoidable exposures are less likely to put our pets beyond their threshold of tolerable toxic exposures. The air pollutants that get into the water, the heavy metals our tap water leaches out of the pipes, the heavy metals in the 
fish food and rocks and gravel - these are harder to control.
Consider avoiding buying plants rooted in rock wool, lead strips for sinking plants, soft plastics with carcinogenic plasticizers. The industry will find good substitutes if we stop buying products that harm our fish. 

John






Another point
On Apr 5, 2005, at 7:19 PM, A JACOBSON wrote:
There is debris, and then there is debris. Asbestos has a needle-like structure that, though very fine, manages to pierce respiratory tissue and lodge there.
The debris that I stir up during water changes tends to be organic wastes and substrate, neither one of which is likely to have a microscopic structure that pierces tissue. Sandpaper, on the other hand, is grit that is designed to cut. Microscopically, it is sharp. If plexiglass sands off in microscopic "shards", it would also inflict damage, even if it were chemically benign.
Think of it this way. I can drink almost anything out of my glass, with no worry about ingesting any poisonous substance from the glass -- it is basically inert, not reacting with any liquid I put in there. However, drinking finely-ground up glass isn't going to do my digestive system any good, not because the glass is poisonous, but because of the particular structure I am being exposed to. 

Anita
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Susan Welenofsky<mailto:welenofsky@comcast.net>
To: 'Greater Seattle Aquarium Society member chat'<mailto:gsas-member@thekrib.com> 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 4:44 PM
  Subject: RE: [GSAS-Member] Safe in Tank Acrylic Sandpaper
What about all the fine particles that are stirred up during water changes from Flourite? A lot of fish don't live in perfectly clear water. I saw that there were kits one could buy that were for use within the aquarium, with 
  the fish. How bad can acrylic be if the fish are housed in an acrylic
aquarium? Do particles in water stick to fish gills and clog them up? It seems it they did get stuff on there gills, it rinses off with each gulp of 
  new water? Maybe Tom Waltzek would know?

  Susan

  -----Original Message-----
From: gsas-member-bounces@thekrib.com<mailto:gsas-member-bounces@thekrib.com> 
  [mailto:gsas-member-bounces@thekrib.com] On Behalf Of Hess, Clay A
  Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 1:07 PM
  To: Greater Seattle Aquarium Society member chat
  Subject: RE: [GSAS-Member] Safe in Tank Acrylic Sandpaper

  I will suggest again that you do not want to sand your tank with the
  fish in the tank. Plexiglas particles and the particles from the
sandpaper were never meant to be part of the fish environment. Although 
  you may not recognize any significant impact to your fish immediately,
  neither do humans recognize lung damage immediately from fine particle
  exposure (look at asbestos as a perfect example).  Similarly, skin or
external damage does not always appear immediately either (fiberglass is 
  an excellent example for this one).
I know that I have seen much written recently about the care we take to make our tanks not feel like "prisons", the care we take in creating the 
  perfect balanced diet for our fish, the care we take in getting the
  lighting just right for our plants.  Soooooooo, it begs the question,
  why would anyone, that takes this much care with their fish, take a
chance on sanding the inside of their tank while the fish are in it? It 
  is just not worth the risk in my humble opinion.

  Clay

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Susan Welenofsky [mailto:welenofsky@comcast.net]
  Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 1:03 PM
  To: 'Greater Seattle Aquarium Society member chat'
  Subject: RE: [GSAS-Member] Safe in Tank Acrylic Sandpaper
I found McGuire's 2500 sandpaper ($20 per box, must buy whole package). 
  I bought 2000 wet/dry grit today (5 sheets, $8). I'm going to use the
  sander. They have finer grits at a different store, in Kirkland. So, I
  can safely use the black wet/dry sandpaper while the fish are in the
  tank? I would buy a package of that or 3,000 if someone wants to split
  it with me. I can get an auto dealer/worker discount on the stuff.

  Susan

  -----Original Message-----
From: gsas-member-bounces@thekrib.com<mailto:gsas-member-bounces@thekrib.com> 
  [mailto:gsas-member-bounces@thekrib.com] On Behalf Of Paul Winchester
  Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 10:43 AM
  To: gsas-member@thekrib.com<mailto:gsas-member@thekrib.com>
  Subject: RE: [GSAS-Member] Safe in Tank Acrylic Sandpaper

  I have successfully used the black wet dry paper in a couple of my
  acrylic
tanks. I have heard that the micromesh works well but have not found it 
  locally in a fine grit.
Depending on the depth of the scratch I would use 400-1800 grit, the 400 
  for

  only the really deep scratches, then follow with 600-800 and then
  1200-1800.

  I sand in same the direction as the scratch. For teeth marks I would
  sand in

  a circular motion and probably use 1200 first.
You might want to start with the fine 1200-1800 first to see the effect, 
  but

  the finer paper requires more effort to see the results. Be sure to
  always
  progress from the course paper to fine. Sand as little as possible to
  prevent the area from looking distorted.

  After using the fine 1200-1800 grit paper the arcrylic can be polished
  with
  a cloth and some of the arcylic polishing compound available at the
  stores.
I think similar results could achieved using other polishing substances, 

  like baking soda. If you didnt use too much it shouldnt changes the ph
  much.
From: "Susan Welenofsky" <welenofsky@comcast.net<mailto:welenofsky@comcast.net>> 
Reply-To: Greater Seattle Aquarium Society member
chat<gsas-member@thekrib.com<mailto:gsas-member@thekrib.com>>
To: "GSAS Member Chat" <gsas-member@thekrib.com<mailto:gsas-member@thekrib.com>> 
Subject: [GSAS-Member] Safe in Tank Acrylic Sandpaper
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:50:26 -0700

What is a good, safe, in tank sandpaper? I believe I have a lot of
scratches
on the acrylic surface from tooth marks from a pleco. I read something
about
micromesh being safe. I was also wondering if the black wet/dry auto
sandpaper was safe to use. I know they sell acrylic scratch kits that

  are

safe to use in aquariums, with fish, but they are quite expensive.



Susan

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Dr. John F. Ruhland
The Natural Health Medical Clinic
4002 - 25th Avenue S, Seattle, WA 98108
206-723-4891
www.drruhland.com
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