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Let's play catch-up!
Good Morning Everyone,
It looks like Erik has gotten the mailing list set up for us, and I hope to
God that I've gotten everybody subscribed properly. But if you want the
Digest format, please follow Erik's instructions in an earlier message:
In the body of a message to majordomo@thekrib.com, place the following two
lines:
unsubscribe aga-contest
subscribe aga-contest-digest
I apologize for my silence during this roll-over phase from my hacked mail
group to a real list, but I didn't want to loose any information until I was
sure that the mailing list was set-up correctly. I also suffered my second
asthma attack of this summer during the past week and I'm not feeling much
like doing anything right now other than gasping for air.
>From what folks have said so far, it appears that (Wright Huntley and George
Booth not-withstanding) most people would prefer a real contest, as opposed
to just a "showcase", although all or at least the more interesting entries
should be showcased on the AGA web-site, so I guess it will end up being a
bit of both. Please either concur or ammend my thinking on this major point.
What do you think we should call the contest/showcase? I think that the name
should reflect our desire for this to be inclusive of the following points:
1. International in scope - not just American
2. Under the sponsorship/leadership of the Aquatic Gardeners Association
3. Open to all, not just AGA members.
The floor is open for suggestions.
The format for submissions still seems to be up in the air - I don't want to
exclude anybody on the basis of how much they have or have not spent on the
lastest video still camera, and Erik seems to feel that submission of colour
prints presents no problems. As I said, I have a colour scanner (UMAX
1200P - capable of 36-bit colour 600X600 pixel REAL resolution). I have no
facilities to be able to scan slides however. Before we can decide where
entries can be submitted we have to be sure that the person on that end can
cope with WHATEVER formats we decide upon as being acceptable. I don't want
to see us having to trans-ship submissions from one person to another - too
many chances for either Canada Post or the US Mail to screw up (like they
did on me a few months ago when they delivered a box of live guppies from
southern California to a customs clearance house in Vancouver as opposed to
one here in Toronto).
As I see it, potential entrants could have any or all of the following
formats that they might wish to submit:
1. Colour Prints - anything from 4"X6" to 8"X10". I would tend to favour
setting our acceptance on 8"X10" colour glossies (with emphasis on the
glossy part - scanning a photo with a patterned surface is murder!). 4" X 6"
colour prints, as commonly delivered by a mini lab, are generally not of
sufficient quality or detail to be able to really see the details of an
aquascape.
2. Colour Slides - probably mostly 35mm. Excellent format, but very
difficult and expensive for us to scan. I suggest that we NOT accept 35mm
slides, or indeed any other size of transparency, due to the fact that slide
scanning equipment is both expensive and not widely used at the amateur
level.
3. Electronic format - here I am going to have to rely on you for guidance.
While I did work as a professional photographer a long time ago, it was back
in the days when film was the undisputed king of the hill. Even news photos
were all shot using Nikons in those days and I can still develop a roll of
film in my sleep. My knowledge of the available electronic formats of today
is very limited. I have seen images on the web which are purported to have
been shot with video still cameras that looked quite good, but I have also
seen a lot of blocky, pixelated crap. We will have to insist on the fac that
the file format submitted be both common and capable of supporting at least
24-bits of colour information. For display on the WWW, JPEG formated images
are O.K. but the JPEG format uses "lossy compression" and for judging
purposes we should have a raw, uncompressed image of at least 24-bit to work
with. Does anyone know what Neil's requirements are for printing of photos
in the AGA Journal?
Several of you have stated that you have facilities for scanning various
formats - that's great but it also creates problems as to where entries are
to go and could result in both delays and lost material if we have to get
involved with multiple input points and trans-border mailing of submissions
from one person to another. We should have ONE place where material is
submitted (or at most two, one in Canada, one in the U.S.). Any more and we
risk confusing the public (and ME!).
It seems that mostly everyone is in agreement that all submitted material
should become the property of the Aquatic Gardener's Association and is not
going to be returned to the sender. The AGA should have the right to publish
any and all submitted material in either print format or in electronic
format, with the provision that the original aquascaper/photographer
receives a credit (credit only - no monetary payment). If anyone has a major
problem with this, or a point that still needs to be made, well... as the
priest said... "Speak now, or forever hold your peace..."
I see no reason to require that the tank owner/aquascaper also be the
photographer - but if they are NOT the same person, that point should be
disclosed and both people should be credited for the image. However, I think
that I WOULD have a problem if the tank owner submitted an aquascape that
was done by someone else and didn't disclose the fact (I'm thinking here of
what Wright Huntely wrote on the APD). What do people think?
Entrance fees: We've bandied this about - with opinions falling all over the
place. I continue to feel that this contest should in no way be a drain on
AGA resources or revenues. If it is decided to charge at least a small fee,
I also feel that AGA members should receive some sort of "discount", or be
able to have the fee waived altogether - it might encourage people to join
the organization. As several people have pointed out, if things are done
electronically, our costs will be minimal but we still have the issue of
prizes and mailing to deal with and the monies collected from enteries could
cover that. I further suggest that any entry fee be payable directly to the
AGA and NOT the contest or it's organizers.
That's about it for now - time for me to go inhale some medication...
James Purchase
Toronto
____________________________
"ADDENDUM"
I don't really know if I've sent the following out to people (when I'm
fighting for breath, sometimes I tend to forget what I'm doing), so I'm
attaching a bunch of messages that were sent to me:
Begin -
____________________________
Justin Collins, Jennifer Glover and Ken Guin have joined the discussion.
As an aside, I have asked Erik to set up a proper mailing list for this
discussion. while I don't mind doing the cutting and pasting, I don't want
to give anyone the impression that I want control over the list or it's
content.
Once Erik has the list set up I will register everyone.
James Purchase
Toronto
______________________
Roger Miller:
SUBJECT: housekeeping
It looks to me that to keep things working smoothly we should reply
directly to James, not to the entire "cc" list on each message.
SUBJECT: divisions
There's been some talk on subdividing a competition into different
divisions. Wright Huntley and Stephane Andre both pointed out that in a
photo contest it would be fairly easy to rig the results by submitting
"dressed up" photos. We might be able to avoid some problems by
setting up separate professional and amateur divisions and limiting the
awards.
I don't see much reason to just provide a showcase. Most of us could
showcase tanks on our own sites if we wanted to. Also, Erik might like to
host a showcase at the Krib, but if so I think that should be distinctly
separate from the competition.
SUBJECT: Submission format
Whatever format is used it will have to be passed around to judges in
(presumably) widely separated locations. Traditional hardcopy will be
subject to loss and damage. Also, hardcopy can't be displayed on the web,
and getting things displayed seems to be important.
I think that the material judged should be in electronic form. The
material submitted might be digital files, slides or color photos. With
either of the last two formats the contestants must be aware that the
material will be scanned before it's judged and there might be some loss
of quality. That way the contestant can make the choice whether they want
to have the material scanned under their own quality control or leave that
up to someone else to do it.
I have a MicroTek E3 color scanner we could use but I suspect that
better equipment will be available.
I think photos should be limited to full views rather than detail shots.
It seems like 3 views would be needed to give a sense of what the tank
looks like; more than 3 views would be a mess. The photos should be
accompanied with a written (emailed) description of the tank. I think a
plan sketch would be really nice for some of the "top-ranked" tanks, but
not necessary for all submissions.
SUBJECT: Associated costs.... who's gonna pay???
If the judging is based on electronic information, then what are the
costs? If we ask for an entrance fee maybe any surplus should go to AGA;
who would be responsible for shortfalls?
SUBJECT: Judging and Awards
It might be better to divide tanks into categories such as "superior",
"excellent", "good" and so on rather than having the judges select a first
place, second place and so on. A single "best in show" might be nice, but
*very* tough to pick.
Perhaps the awards should be limited to certificates or ribbons, rather
than merchandise.
Roger Miller
in Albuquerque
__________________________________
Jennifer Glover:
I would like to participate in the discussion about the internet aquarium
contest.
I would also like to enter, when you get around to that point. Information
on my
tank is at
http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/sword/3, though I can write stuff up if
you
want.
Some quick points,
I would like to see the contest remain on the web, with entrients from
around the
world.
I would also like to keep it a more informal contest than the person from
Holland
seemed to be implying. Kindof a friendly contest/event to get more
information on
other aquariums, instead of a contest where wining means everything. I
can't see
someone faking a picture just for a friendly contest. Even if they did, the
benefits
of the large quantity of information generated by the contest, would be
worth it.
Plus, I don't think someone could fake a picture to the point that it wasn't
obvious.
Would it be really difficult to show almost all of the entrients pictures?
I can
never get enough pictures of aquariums and I would love to see what everyone
is doing
in the world.
As for keeping it cheap and commmercial free, how about having some people
donate
rare/desirable plants to the contest. Winners get a list of plants that
they choose
one or two from. That way, information/plants are being exchanged even
after the
contest.
Also, I was really concerned to hear that the contests might require
physical
examination, rather than pictures sent on the web. I wouldn't mind showing
someone
my tanks, but I think it would be next to impossible to get someone to drive
to my
house. It just seems that regional contests would bar most people
(especially
overseas people) from the contest. America is much larger than holland!
I know that photography is not everyone's cup of tea, but maybe it will
encourage
people to try to learn. There is not much more wasted than a beautiful tank
that no
one can see. I borrowed a friends digital camera and had a field day taking
pictures. If someone in my area (Maryland, DC, Virginia) needs help taking
pictures,
I will loan them equipment or take the pictures for them.
In order to reward people for beautiful setups that last over time, maybe
have bonus
points/differnt category for time-elapsed pictures. This would hurt people
just
starting out with photography, but would help people get a feel for/see how
plants
mature. I don't think new setups should be penalized, because if you are
judging
aquascaping, new/old plants are no different. It is the combination at the
time of
the picture that matter.
Whew! There are my $.02 and some extra on top of that! The contest is a
great idea
and I applaud you for such a wonderful idea. More importantly, is what you
are doing
with the idea. An idea is nothing without the implementation.
Jennifer Glover
(sunny, hot, Waldorf, MD)
_____________________
Olga Betts:
SUBJECT: Mailing list
>From Erik:
>I forgot to tell you yesterday, but I can set up a real mailing list for
>you on the AGA site if you like.
>________________________
>From James:
Actually, Erik, I don't mind doing it the way I've set it up. But it it gets
>to be too much, I'll let you know... However, what does everyone else
>think - would you prefer a "real" mailing list? I'll go along with the
crowd
>on this one.
--------------------------
Might be an idea to have Erik do this James. I don't know anything about
these things but I have a gut feeling that anything else could get rather
unweildly. Wouldn't it mean that we then wouldn't have to be so careful
with the subject line and etc... I just know I'm gonna forget that sooner
or later! <g>
Olga
Vancouver
__________________
>> SUBJECT: Competition or Showcase???
>
>From Erik:
I find it's just the opposite here as well. People are too lazy to submit
>things for show, but are more motivated if it's a contest with prizes.
>__________________
Showcase we could do anytime and many people already do this on a personal
Web page or the Krib etc. Anyway... we will end up with a showcase due to
the competition.
Olga
Vancouver
_______________________
>> SUBJECT: Submission format
>From Erik:>Piece of cake, just scan at the highest resolution you can and
send em to
>me. I have a shell script that I run on my images here (typically scanned
>at 3k by 2k, which is max for the slides/negs, but way more than anyone
>would ever want) that creates nice 800x600ish anti-aliased versions and
>really tiny thumbnail versions.
>Depending on the judges, I can also burn CD-ROMs of everything.
_________________________
I can also scan photos and slides, do digital film editing,
copy/edit/change European format videos into North American format and burn
CDs...(I have access to all these facilities). HOWEVER, I am a beginner at
these things and do not have Erik's expertise. I could send high res images
to him to work on pretty easily.
Olga
Vancouver
_______________________
>SUBJECT: Associated Information
>
>From Erik:
This sounds great. The AGA (probably Karen, actually), came up with a
>diagnostic form for planted tank problems that you might be able to use as
>a starting point for suggested information.
>____________________
>From James:
I think Olga was working on that. We should get her input.
_____________________
I made up a form for a survey. I recently sent off the survey to Karen and
Neil of AGA. It is a very comprehensive survey meant to collect meaningful
statistical data on plant growth, however, I'm sure parts of it could be
used just to gather set-up data. Not sure if this is what Erik is referring
to.
Olga
Vancouver
>_____________________
>
>> SUBJECT: Associated costs.... who's gonna pay???
>
>From Erik:
I'd suggest
>making the entrants include an SASE if they wish to have their photos
>returned; then we just have to cover the costs of prizes and mailing to
>the judges.
>__________________
>From James:
Fine, so long as Canadian entrants send their stuff to me, and American
>entrants send their stuff to you.... (Canada Post won't accept an envelope
>with US Stamps and most American institutions just laugh at Canadian money
>and stamps). International submitters could be facing difficulty
____________________
James is right. No stamps and self-addressed stuff... won't work
internationally. In many different countries I have been amazed at how the
citizens think their stamps will work anywhere! Nope...I say... entries
become property of the contest officials with the rider than they will not
be used for anything except the contest without express written consent
from the contributor. No returns. Returns don't work anyway. I only
received one photo back from the AGA contest... I sent several along with
the negative... all lost. :< Best not to expect them.
Olga
Vancouver
___________________
>From Erik:
Additionally, if even a nominal fee is required up front it indicate that
>we are serious about this.
>How about free to AGA members, small nominal fee to non-members?
>____________________
>From James:
I'm cool with this - of course it means that I'm gonna have to renew my
>membership..... What does everyone else think?
>_____________________
I say $5 US <gasp> ($8 cdn) none AGA members and $2 for members. After all
one has to consider that MOST entrants may end up being AGAers.
Olga
Vancouver
____________________________
Dave Gomberg:
At 11:11 AM 7/9/99 -0500, James Purchase wrote:
>> SUBJECT: Competition or Showcase???
>
>I find it's just the opposite here as well. People are too lazy to submit
>things for show, but are more motivated if it's a contest with prizes.
When we had an AGA photo contest, there were almost no submissions. A
very few were OK, some were less that OK. None were stunning. I have
stunning pics I can share, and can make many more from the tanks I can get
to.
-------------------
>Depending on the judges, I can also burn CD-ROMs of everything.
>_______________________
>I was wondering about this..... getting a series of images to the various
>judges.... CD-Rom drives are, luckily, in almost every computer
>today so that would be a perfect way to distribute the material to the
>judges. But I'm uncertain of the cost
Dirt cheap in modest volumes
>________________________
International submitters could be facing difficulty - do all
>Post Offices have some sort of voucher which is accepted by US Mail?
There is an International Reply Coupon available world-wide that can be
redeemed in any country for enough postage to send one ounce (now there's
cultural imperialism) by surface.
___________________
>> Additionally, if even a nominal fee is required up front it indicate that
>we are serious about this.
>How about free to AGA members, small nominal fee to non-members?
___________________
>I'm cool with this - of course it means that I'm gonna have to renew my
>membership..... What does everyone else think?
Sounds good to me.
--
Dave Gomberg, San Francisco mailto:gomberg@wcf.com
The latest in CO2 news: http://www.wcf.com/co2iron
Tropica MasterGrow in the USA: http://www.wcf.com/tropica
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Guin:
Subject: Suggestions
James thanks for adding me to the list.
1.I too have print/slide scanning hardware and will be able to help there.
2. While I think that the $5 would help eliminate all but the serious, I
think it would be too much of a hassle for us to deal with.
3. I originally thought the "showcase" method rather than a "contest" would
make it simpler too and avoid controversy. However, after thinking about it,
I am leaning more toward the contest idea. Of course, we could have a
showcase for a certain period with judging afterwards.
4. With that in mind, we could even think about the possibility of letting
APD members vote for their favorite setup. Of course, Erik would have to
agree to that. In fact, he might not have the capability to provide that
service.
5. I believe the whole process would be greatly simplified if Erik will post
the photos. However, there are other sites that are free where people can
post their photos on the Net. If that ever becomes an issue, let me know and
I will send the sites to you.
6. While diagrams and tank parameters would be a great accent to the
process, I would imagine that this would greatly increase the amount of work
that will need to be done. I strongly suggest that we keep this first round
as simple as we possibly can. There is going to be a lot of cliches during
this "charter" run and the simpler it is the better chance we have of making
this a permanent fixture.
7. I also strongly suggest that whomever submits an entry is responsible for
submitting it in digital format ready to go on Erik's website. Again, the
simpler the better. Having others do the scanning, etc. will be a
nightmare.
Regards,
Ken Guin
Arlington, Virginia
____________________________________