[no subject]

[krandall@world.std.com]

At 12:04 PM 7/10/99 -0500, James wrote:
>1. Colour Prints - anything from 4"X6" to 8"X10". I would tend to favour 
>setting our acceptance on 8"X10" colour glossies (with emphasis on the 
>glossy part - scanning a photo with a patterned surface is murder!). 4" X 6" 
>colour prints, as commonly delivered by a mini lab, are generally not of 
>sufficient quality or detail to be able to really see the details of an 
>aquascape.

Actually, with a good scanner you can make a very good digital image from a
4"x6" print. If you make the file too large, it becomes very unwieldy. By
asking people to get 8"x10" prints, you are already increasing the cost of
entry dramatically.

>2. Colour Slides - probably mostly 35mm. Excellent format, but very 
>difficult and expensive for us to scan. I suggest that we NOT accept 35mm 
>slides, or indeed any other size of transparency, due to the fact that slide 
>scanning equipment is both expensive and not widely used at the amateur 
>level.

Not true. Both Erik and I have slide scanners. They do an excellent job,
are idiot proof (even _I_ was able to figure out how to use it without
reading the manual ;-) and are not even expensive. BTW, they also scan very
easily from negative strips, making it super easy to sort negatives and can
scan small prints as well, though I tend to use my flatbed for that
application..

>Entrance fees: We've bandied this about - with opinions falling all over the 
>place. I continue to feel that this contest should in no way be a drain on 
>AGA resources or revenues.

It will not be a drain unless the response is _much bigger than I suspect.
It's easy to get excited about the idea when you read about it. It's quite
another to actually get the tank, cleaned up, get the film, get out the
camera, wait for the reflections from the windows not to be hitting the
tank, take the pictures, get them developed, find out that you had a big
streak on the glass, and let the flash get in the picture, take them again,
have them developed, get the proper mailing container, take them to the
P.O.... You get my drift. I'd _love_ there to be an overwhelming response.
And if we do, the cost to AGA will be well worth it, as it will give Neil
TAG material for years to come!<g>

> If it is decided to charge at least a small fee, 
>I also feel that AGA members should receive some sort of "discount", or be 
>able to have the fee waived altogether - it might encourage people to join 
>the organization. As several people have pointed out, if things are done 
>electronically, our costs will be minimal 

I can tell you right now, that AGA will not be able to run a contest that
can only be entered by those with electronic access. We have too many
non-computer members, and it is our duty to serve their needs as well. If
AGA is invoved, there _must_ be a hard copy, snail mail method of entry as
well as whatever electronic medis is accepted. 
____________________________

>I think photos should be limited to full views rather than detail shots. 
>It seems like 3 views would be needed to give a sense of what the tank 
>looks like; more than 3 views would be a mess. The photos should be 
>accompanied with a written (emailed) description of the tank. I think a 
>plan sketch would be really nice for some of the "top-ranked" tanks, but 
>not necessary for all submissions.

I think that specifically limiting how the tank is presented to the judges
will leave many worthy tanks out. I can think of a couple right off the top
of my head. Neil has an awesome 6' tank in a narrow fishroom. It is not
possible to get far wnough from the tank to get the whole thing in one
shot. There are also many people who have built in display tanks, where the
ONLY view available is from the front. IMO, put the onus on the tank's
owner to present the tank to the judges in as fair a way as possible. Just
because someone submits a handful of photos doesn't mean that they will
have any more weight with the judges then one really good photo would.
Certainly put an upper limit on the number of photos acceptable, but the
less you tie people's hands, the more participation and creativity you will
see.

>SUBJECT: Associated costs.... who's gonna pay???
>If the judging is based on electronic information, then what are the 
>costs? If we ask for an entrance fee maybe any surplus should go to AGA; 
>who would be responsible for shortfalls?

I'm hoping that this was posted before I made my comments.

>SUBJECT: Judging and Awards 
> 
>It might be better to divide tanks into categories such as "superior", 
>"excellent", "good" and so on rather than having the judges select a first 
>place, second place and so on. A single "best in show" might be nice, but 
>*very* tough to pick.

I think that's a very good idea. Very often when we do our Home Show, and I
actually get to see the tanks in person it can be very difficult to choose
between very beautiful, very different tank. 
__________________________________

Jennifer Glover wrote:

>I would also like to keep it a more informal contest than the person from 
>Holland 
>seemed to be implying. Kindof a friendly contest/event to get more 
>information on 
>other aquariums, instead of a contest where wining means everything. I 
>can't see 
>someone faking a picture just for a friendly contest. Even if they did, the 
>benefits 
>of the large quantity of information generated by the contest, would be 
>worth it.

Vey good points.

>Plus, I don't think someone could fake a picture to the point that it wasn't 
>obvious.

Oh, you certainly could. Take a look at the Tepoot book. OTOH, who are you
hurting by doing that? Only yourself. It would only prove that you were
more adept with the computer than someone else, not that you were a better
aquarist. IMO, we accept the fact that there will _always_ be some people
who feel the need to cheat. The main benefit of this exercise for everyone
is the chance to see everyone's tanks.

>Would it be really difficult to show almost all of the entrients pictures?

Erik, what if we gave people the option of getting a CD with all the photos
from the contest? What would we need to charge per disk? (make sure you
make it worth your while)

>Also, I was really concerned to hear that the contests might require 
>physical 
>examination, rather than pictures sent on the web. I wouldn't mind showing 
>someone 
>my tanks, but I think it would be next to impossible to get someone to drive 
>to my 
>house. It just seems that regional contests would bar most people 
>(especially 
>overseas people) from the contest. America is much larger than holland!

I agree that's totally unrealistic. Even our BAS Home Show is an 18 hour
marathon!

>I know that photography is not everyone's cup of tea, but maybe it will 
>encourage 
>people to try to learn. There is not much more wasted than a beautiful tank 
>that no 
>one can see. I borrowed a friends digital camera and had a field day taking 
>pictures. If someone in my area (Maryland, DC, Virginia) needs help taking 
>pictures, 
>I will loan them equipment or take the pictures for them.

Another source of images for camera impaired <g> entrants is their local
school systems. I'd bet there aren't many High Schools these days that
don't have a digital camera or two available to students. Schools can even
get these without spending money on them through Campbell label
collections, and AT&T points for schools. Call up the local school and see
if the students would be willing to help photograph the tanks. 
________________________ 

Olga wrote:

>James is right. No stamps and self-addressed stuff... won't work 
>internationally. In many different countries I have been amazed at how the 
>citizens think their stamps will work anywhere! 

Oh, I misunderstood. I now realize you were discussing the SASE thing.

>Nope...I say... entries 
>become property of the contest officials with the rider than they will not 
>be used for anything except the contest without express written consent 
>from the contributor. No returns. Returns don't work anyway. I only 
>received one photo back from the AGA contest... I sent several along with 
>the negative... all lost. :< Best not to expect them.

I still feel bad about Olga's photos being lost. I think she's right. Let
people know they will _not_ get their photos back, so to _please_ send only
duplicates. 
___________________

>I say $5 US <gasp> ($8 cdn) none AGA members and $2 for members. After all 
>one has to consider that MOST entrants may end up being AGAers.

I still say submit your proposal to the AGA without asking for an entry fee
for members. I _do_ like the idea of a nominal fee for non-members. How
about $5 per tank? That way if they want to submit more than two tanks,
it's cheaper to be a member. If the Steering committee feels that the
organization cannot cover the whole cost of the contest, then there is
plenty of time to add a fee. 
____________________________

>Ken Guin wrote:

>4. With that in mind, we could even think about the possibility of letting 
>APD members vote for their favorite setup. Of course, Erik would have to 
>agree to that. In fact, he might not have the capability to provide that 
>service.

Not if it's an AGA contest. I am a member of both groups, and there is a
great deal of overlap. But it a long way short of a complete overlap. 

>7. I also strongly suggest that whomever submits an entry is responsible for 
>submitting it in digital format ready to go on Erik's website. Again, the 
>simpler the better. Having others do the scanning, etc. will be a 
>nightmare.

Again, if it is an AGA contest, that is not possible. We must meet the
needs of our non-computer using members.

Karen