I don't half blame Roger for his feelings of frustration - I share them. We have been talking for 10 days and it is clear that we don't all agree on the basic nature of this event. I am tired of going in circles. I thought that the basic nature of this was accepted to consist of aspects of BOTH Showcase and Competition. With the Showcase aspect to receive more emphasis than the Competition aspect. Yet two prominent members recently showed that they have heard, or at least absorbed, absolutely nothing that has been said over the last few days. One said "I'm afraid that to me it sounds as though you really want a showcase and not a competition... " The other said "Point is, since it's a national contest..." Let's not even go there concerning the "national" remark - as a Canadian, I am more than a little peeved to be organizing a "national" event for a group of Americans. I'm sure that Jose would feel the same way. This is NOT just an issue of symantics. Roger stated that he wanted more emphasis on ART, which scared the willies out of a lot of you. He also said that if he didn't get his way, he'd be gone (even if not in so many words, that's what he meant). Well, he's gone... Jennifer (and quite a few others) got very nervous about what they perceived as too high a tone being set by Roger's insistence on ART and my discussion of CRAFT. In an effort to appease both ends of the spectrum, I asked Roger to tone down his insistence on ART for the sake of inclusion and comfort for those not quite up to it. I also suggested to everyone that perhaps Roger had stumbled onto a possible solution to our problem - the separation of the Showcase from the Contest. This seemed to please nobody. But I didn't hear any alternate suggestions which covered all of the bases. It seems that the crowd which favours "inclusion" means inclusion of everyone who thinks the way they do and to hell with everyone else. As you can probably tell, I'm getting very close to blowing my stack... I know that this is moving very quickly and that a lot is going on, but it seems that every time I attempt to suggest something which might get us out of our dilemas, it is either too radical, as in "James, I love the Web and all that goes with it but you've lost me here. WHAT are you talking about??" or "I disagree. But at this point it makes no difference." No alternative suggestions, no suggestions for how adjustments can be made. Just "I'm confused" or "I'm taking my bat and ball and going home". I can't take much more of this. I won't take much more of this. I can certainly see why George Booth describes himself as cynical. Out of 26 current members, only 16 have bothered to post anything, and only 7 have posted more than 10 messages. I know that you can't always judge the quality of a contribution by either the frequency or the length, but if you are not interested in contributing, I have to start wondering why you are here at all. Certainly not to hear me preach. If I can't get any coherent feedback, constructive suggestions or even much of anything out of the majority of you, what is the point? Do any of you really think that I can organize this by myself, or with only one or two other vocal people? Are any of you still working under the assumption that "someone else" can/should do it and you can just sit on the fence? I've got news for you - people who sit on fences quite often end up with pickets in uncomfortable places. A suggestion was made that we agree on a set of common goals and/or prepare a mission statment NOW so that we can move forward together rather than continue to go in circles. Unless I read input from EVERYBODY on the list within 48 hours of this posting, on just this topic, you will only have yourselves to blame for this falling apart. James Purchase Toronto ------------------ To unsubscribe from this list, e-mail majordomo@aquatic-gardeners.org with "unsubscribe aga-contest" in the body of the message. To subscribe to the digest version, add "subscribe aga-contest-digest" in the same message. Old messages are available at http://lists.thekrib.com/aga-contest