Re: [AGA Contest] various replies, incl judging...

["roger" <roger@spinn.net>]

On Mon, 24 May 2004 08:52:10 -0400, Phil Edwards wrote

> for example:
> Judge A: 100, Judge B: 98, Judge C: 94, Judge D: 95, Judge E: 99
> 
> rather than
> 
> Judge A: 1st, Judge B: 1st, Judge C: 2nd, Judge D: 2nd, Judge E: 1st

Phil, you seem to be assuming that the judges will use some kind of consistent
scale.  The contest has never required that and I don't see any reason why it
should. Furthermore the whole problem is avoided by using the judge's ranks
rather than their scores.  That gives the judges freedom to determine the
scores on whatever scale they are comfortable with.

> We've got a numerically based scoring process if my memory serves me 
> this morning.  If we determine placement by the number of 1sts, 2nds,
>  and/or 3rds given an aquascape by the judges why bother with 
> scoring them at all?

The scoring categories and the scores are a way of setting priorities and
organizing the judge's approach to scoring -- hopefully to get a more
consistent result.  How the judges actually use the scores is entirely up to 
them.

> If we've already got the numerical scores for 
> each aquascape why not use them?  The example of the Biotope getting 
> the most 1st place votes by the judges, yet not getting Best of Show 
> is the perfect example.  If placement had been determined solely on 
> score would that aquascape have been best of show?  Would James' 
> tank have been?  As I said before, by scoring a design the judges 
> have given their opinion and had their say.  There should be no need 
> to go back and discuss results etc unless there is a tie in the 
> average score for any two or more design(s).

The odds are good that the winner in a category where there are few entries
will get more 1st place votes than the winner in a category with more entries.
The number of 1st place votes says something about the number of entries in a
category.  It doesn't say anything about the relative quality of the entries
in different categories.

By giving their scores the judges have ranked entries in a category against
each other -- or maybe they've scored them agaist some undescribed ideal, or
against tanks they've seen in other shows, or maybe they've just thrown in
some numbers to justify some personal bias.  They do it in their own ways. 
The only thing that is necessarily comparable between different judges is the
resulting ranks.

Every judge has personal freedom to score things the way they see it and I
don't think we need to change that.  Erik tries to get judges who are
respected and rational.  We put our trust in their decisions and we need to
let them do the work the way they see fit.

There will always be differences and as always the ideal way to settle those
differences is to talk it out.  Unfortunately most of those difference aren't
reconcilable in the time or the forum we provide, so they have to be resolved
some other way.

> Also, going back to my above idea about using score vs. [place]ment 
> voting.  Perhaps I'm being to idealistic and naive, but when we're 
> scoring each aquascape, shouldn't we be scoring it, and ultimately 
> ranking it, based upon the merits and faults of the design alone and 
> not how it compares to the others in the category?

There are few accepted standards for what is meritorious in an aquascape, and
few things that are necessarily faults.  I imagine we all have some standards
of merit and definitions of flaws that we use in appraising an aquascape;
those things comprise a judge's personal bias.  If a judge uses those external
standard as the sole basis for his or her scores then their results are
completely biased.  Otherwise, the scores are based on the relative merits of
the entries.


Roger Miller
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