Hello Sam Yung I would venture to say i know the source of your pet shops fish. Just north of Toronto in Orilla Ontario, there is a place called Rift Valley lake breeders that supply alot of african to the shops in southern, eastern Ontario and west Quebec. The people that run this place do breed quite a bit of the fish the sell but also bring in alot of wild caught fish. I have purchased Cacatuoides and Borellis from them at the last OCA Cichlid Extravaganza this past november. The fish they sell are of really really good quality. As a matter of fact I'm picking up fish from the at the end of this coming week. I haven't had a single problem with the fish i bought from them, all still alive and doing well. I picked up A. Agassizi Red/gold, Cacatuoides Double reds and sp Opal ( Borelli type) from them, very nice fish, plus they had a very nice selection of westies. My point here being ( sorry for rambling) is that I would guess if there was problems with the fish you bought it came from inproper conditions at the pet shop and not from the wholesaler. Judith Irwins fish are really good quality stuff, not just the apistos but her african rift lake stuff too. I don't mean to plug her products but i will defend her. I gladly and openly defend anyone i have had good dealings with. I guess my next logical question would be what kind of water conditions are you trying to keep your fish in? What kinds of foods do you use and how often do you do water changes? Food, temperature, water quality and water changes will drastically effect the fish you keep. If you have any other question, feel free to contact me off list if you want, i always love trying to help someone out who's into dwarf cichlids or any kind of fish for that matter. John Wubbolt ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!