Hi Max, Kevin & Others, First to Kevin: I dropped mine in so often that the insides rusted as I have dried them out many times. I've learned to get a good grip on them now. Max: I try to get my water down to below 60ppm to breed the tougher Apistos. Even so low as 20ppm with some of them. The ph should be in the 5.5 range. Of course some of those bred in aquariums will breed at higher levels. I start out at the higher number and if the eggs don't hatch I try to get lower etc. Hope this helps. Don ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!