Bob, I have bred these guys for a few generations, and even after six months, I had a hard time telling if a couple of them were male or female for the same reason. The owner of my favorite LFS and best apisto buddy is sure that they are males. I still don't know, and can't find out now as I traded them to him for my A. biteiniata. They were sold almost the same day they were there. Sorry I can't help. ===== J. Miller Edmonton, AB, Can. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!