Better luck with a second spawning of my blue rams. As suggested, I raised the heat to 85 degrees. I got the water down to a trace hardness and pH of 6. I removed the killis so rams are alone. Tilted a flat rock to 45 degrees as it seemed clear from previous spawning on sloping bogwood that this is what they prefer. The female showed signs of listlessness and stringy white faeces after first spawning so I dosed with anti-hexamite treatment. Plenty of mosquito larva has seen both fish grow quite a bit in a few weeks. They are in a 20 gallon planted tank so are about as spoilt as it gets. As an extra step - though I'm not sure if it helps or hinders - I occasionally have left a mirror at one end of the tank. This gets the male displaying nicely and it is interesting that with spawning, they have shifted the wrigglers to the other end of the tank when the mirror-end was previously preferred. It was noticeable with this spawning that the parents were behaving much more naturally. The male did not chase the female around and then rather absent-mindedly guard the eggs like last time. Instead, both parents took turns at sentry duty and fanned the eggs with arched body - far more focused. Now the pair are shuttling back and forth between the hatching eggs and a little brood of wrigglers that they have placed on the flank of a bit of bog wood (surprised that they haven't made a nest in the sand). When I say shuttle, I mean the pair are exchanging places about every two seconds. I mention all this as a thanks for advice from this list and also because it reveals how dramatically cichlid parenting behaviour can improve when circumstances are to their liking. What still puzzles me is whether there are certain over-riding factors in producing such a change - temperature, practice, health, tank mates, some critical water parameter? And has anyone identified the hormone systems that control parenting behaviour, switching it on and off? Cheers ------------------------------------------------------------ from John McCrone ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com.