Hi folks, thanks for the suggestions. I've decided to use my previous email address for the time being as (as Pete Liptrot said), I can't seem to find how to rejoin the list. If someone can send me instructions on how to, I'd be very grateful. Let me add some info. about my problem. I've had a look at the gills under a microscope and at 50x magnification the gills were covered in little black spots which when viewed at 200x mag. showed as black spots with lots of wavy hairs coming off them. No visible nucleus or anything else for that matter. This would appear to be very similar to the Cilliate (?) described in vol I of the Baensch atlas. Unfortunately I won't be able to give you the full info. until Tuesday. Even though I treated with Serazin (generally good for this sort of thing) there has been no improvement. The most effective treatment (it worked once!) was salt. Unfortunately since then my Crenicichla Regani female keeled over and didn't respond to this treatment. Having spoken to Pete on the phone he suggested that the Cilliats may be a secondary symptom, not the cause. I tend to agree. Water parameters: 0 nitrates 3º DH 3º KH pH between 6 and 7 No visible connection with water supply (some died after a water change, others not), municiple water supply RO'd, maximum of 50% water changed, at approx. once per week, some tanks haven't had many changes in the past couple of months (1 or 2). Heavily planted tanks, producing a lot of oxygen (pearling all day). Filtration is by various methods on different tanks but all have plentiful O2 levels, if anything, the tank with the least O2 is the one with the least problems. In general there is no discolouration anywhere until just before death when the gills sometimes lose colour. Until recently I've been feeding ONLY frozen food and the occasional lot of wild caught mosquito larvae from a planter outside my house or from my water tank (left open for this reason. Stock is generally captive bred. Since speaking to Pete I've tried a bactericide, but won't know how effective this has been until the next fish tips up its toes. C:-)lin They said "Smile, things could be worse." So I smiled and sure enough... -------------------------------------------------------- You too can have your own email address from Eurosport. http://www.eurosport.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com.