Re: N Taenia egg eating!

[David Sanchez <barbax2@yahoo.com>]

I think you just don¡¦t understand the relationship
between pH and carbonic acid. There are many people
that do not pertain to your "high tech" method for
growing plants. There are many angles you can look at
this and as with most data we find that data that
supports our theories.

"O2
> Level is entirely
> Determined by external factors"

External factors certainly play a point in this but to
say that CO2 levels are "entirely" determined by
external factors is just not a scientifically sound
principal.


¡§that whole
> triangular relationship between pH, KH and CO2
> breaks down at low KH,
> because it is no longer a buffer solution.  The pH
> can fluctuate wildly 
> with even the slightest change in CO2 level (or
> frankly, with any other 
?« acid or base added to the system).¡¨

This whole buffer solution system is so misunderstood
by many hobbyists in my opinion. Why will pH
fluctuate, just because we have a KH of 0 do we assume
the pH will simply bounce all over the place? The
relationship of KH to pH, is not if we have 0 KH then
we no longer have a ¡§buffer¡¨ this is a incorrect way
of looking at this. A high KH will help maintain a
Higher pH and vice versa a low KH (for example a 0 KH)
will help maintain a lower pH. Yes if we add chemicals
this is going to fluctuate of course. Especially if we
add CO2 injection. However I am not advocating adding
CO2 to a system with sufficient CO2 present as can be
found in a system with a low KH and pH. All my tanks
have a 0 KH and I don¡¦t have any so-called pH bounce
or crash. I just change my water regularly and dispose
of the organic compounds that would begin to leech
acids over time. Most importantly the plants
themselves will do a great job of maintaining you pH.
A healthy tank with good plant growth will have a
higher pH. Why? Because the plants are using up the
CO2 and thus there is less available to make carbonic
acid. I have several friends with Chemistry and
biology degrees that work in the field of
environmental engineering here in Orlando. They are
old college buddies. We talk and discuss these
relationships with lakes and our aquariums. I have
studied this in the real world not in books. I think
sometimes we read too many books and just and take a
¡§respected¡¨ authors¡¨ word as fact. To me my data is
where I learn from. My pH meter, my conductivity
meter. Applying principals I have learned in books and
testing them in the field. All these relationships I
speak of I have seen both in my aquariums and in lakes
and rivers. I have a deeper understanding of them
through my own research and testing of such theories.

 You are correct ¡§lush¡¨ growth is subjective. I will
say I see no need for CO2 injection in my systems and
I am very happy with my plant growth. I have plenty of
 light and fertilization and there are no limiting
factors affecting my plant growth. Saying that you
have to have CO2 injection for proper plant growth is
incorrect. I have yet to see any natural bodies of
water with CO2 injection. ?º



"Anyway, this is using up more time than I have.  For
> more info, I suggest 
> reading the Krib or archives of the Aquatic Plants
> Digest."

I think a bit nippy and a bit uncalled for. Comes
across the wrong way and could easily lead to a flame
war. I think we need to respect the opinion of others
and treat each other with the same respect we would
like to receive. I think if you don¡¦t have the time
to engage in such discussions then simply don¡¦t. I
don¡¦t think we agree on this subject and guess what
that is ok. Perhaps the Apisto folks would rather hear
about Apistos anyway.  Keep well

David Sanchez


--- Erik Olson <erik@thekrib.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2002, David Sanchez wrote:
> 
> > My point is that there is a correlation between
> KH,
> > pH,and CO2. This what I said
> > 
> > David said
> > "hy are yoiu using a CO2 system if you have water
> > > with
> > > > oKH to begin with Colin? The lower the KH the
> > > higer
> > > > the CO2 level."
> > > 
> 
> > My
> > point is that if you have a low KH and low pH
> there is
> > no need for CO2 injection because using these
> factors
> > we are able to determine the level of CO2 in a
> system
> > of water.  The fact is that by measuring the level
> of
> > both pH and KH you will have the CO2 level in your
> > system. From this premise we can determine why we
> do
> > or do not need a CO2 system in our aquaruims. 
> 
> And my point was that this statement is UNTRUE.  CO2
> level is entirely
> determined by external factors, such as atmospheric
> concentration,
> injection, and respiration. So to claim that Colin's
> tank has enough CO2
> because his KH is very low is untrue.
> 
> Now, if you are using the "charts" to determine the
> CO2 concentration
> based on the pH and KH readings, you should
> understand that whole
> triangular relationship between pH, KH and CO2
> breaks down at low KH,
> because it is no longer a buffer solution.  The pH
> can fluctuate wildly 
> with even the slightest change in CO2 level (or
> frankly, with any other 
> acid or base added to the system).  There are some
> nice analyses by Roger 
> Miller and others on the APD on that same URL I gave
> you for the chart 
> that shows how little you can rely on the charts,
> especially at the 
> extremes.
> 
> 
> > I have not had a CO2 systemn in any of my
> aquaruims yet my tanks have
> > lush plant growth. I do need a CO2 system because
> I already have
> > enough CO2 in my system. DO natural bodies of
> water have CO2
> > injection? no they do not. My point here and what
> awe are discussing
> > is the need or lack there of of a CO2 injection
> system. Just saying
> > you have to have a CO2 system to have good plant
> growth is not
> > corrrect and is based on a lack of understanding
> the relationship of
> > all the given data.
> 
> "Good" or "Lush" Plant growth is a very touchy and
> subjective subject
> amongst plant enthusiasts.  In our fishroom, Kathy
> and I have some 25
> tanks.  Most of them have a single tube of
> fluorescent light over them
> (maybe 1.5 watts per gallon), use aeration, and grow
> plants like Anubias
> nana, Water sprite, and Java Fern quite nicely.  In
> three of our tanks, we
> have double that light, use power filters, and
> bubble CO2 into the
> filters.  These tanks grow more "difficult" plants
> like tenellus and Sag.  
> One tank has maybe 4 watts per gallon and injects
> CO2 through a reactor,
> and I fertilize with Tropica Mastergrow.  In this
> tank, we grow our most
> "complex" plants like Rotala macrandara and
> Glossostigma elatinoides.  
> All these tanks could qualify as "lush", but by
> different standards. 
> 
> Anyway, this is using up more time than I have.  For
> more info, I suggest 
> reading the Krib or archives of the Aquatic Plants
> Digest.
> 
>   - Erik
> 
> 
> -- 
> Erik Olson
> erik at thekrib dot com
> 
> 
>
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