I completely agree with Mike W. It is much safer to identify the fish as far as possible, down as far as race or population, for all the reasons he stated. Randy's problem is approaching from the other end, trying to identify an unidentified apisto, and so is naturally more difficult, if not impossible, than just supplying the extra information. Species are a human concept. The lines between species are drawn arbitrarily by humans, based on an interpretation of characteristics and their relative difference and significance. If you accept evolution as an ongoing process, and apply it to apistos, then it is to be expected that fish will be found that range from very similar (just starting to separate) to very distinct (separated long ago) genetically. Where you draw the line and say it's become a new species is where the debate happens. DNA studies are valuable this way because they can give an idea of the degree of genetic difference (and conversely similarity), and so infer when the ancestors of the fish being compared began to diverge genetically from each other. It must be remembered than any species or species complex that evolves from a very small population will have fewer genes to work with, and so be very similar genetically whilst physically quite different. The Mbuna are an example of this effect. Steve W ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. apisto-digest@listbox.com also available. Web archives at http://lists.thekrib.com/apisto