hi Mike, that testosterone point is a good one! that would make complete sense! Also, wouldn't the male be "expecting" (deep in the remains of their wild brain = primitive brain?) some king of color for the female to have that would trigger their interest? From the description people were making, the fish were not even spawning which is the first step. Absence of attraction? I guess I am trying to say that it is more likely for a male (or a female) of a given species to be attracted by a sexual partner (of the opposite sex) when this partner looks like it is of the opposite sex. Would a male even inquire about a member of his species that he considers to be of the same sex then him: i doubt so. Therefore a female with a lot of red in her fins, with developed fins would look like a male. For example i've noticed with A. nijsseni that the male was choosing the female that displayed the largest black patches on her body, if he has the choice. These female looked more "attractive" to him (they were also the dominant female, due to marking?) Therefore would a female of that species be successful in breeding without any marking? Could she induce the males' interest? What would be her chances if she was looking like another male? That brings up another question: i personnaly like a female to look like ....... a female! I mean, i wouldn't like my female nijsseni (cute little cows!) or whatever to look like a male. they have their own personnaly beauty. so what would be the point of having female cacatuoides looking like males? But that is a matter of personal taste I guess. However I guess fish are also recognizing each other with some kind of hormones that they release in the water (useful in a turbid environment where vision is reduced) and that would eventually bring us back to your point about testosterone. oh well, do we have an ichtyolog on the list who could answer these questions? Did someone read anything on the subject? have a good evening Yvan Alleau 712 NW Kings Blvd Corvallis, OR 97330 College of Oceanic and Atmospheric Sciences Oregon State University office (Burt 222): 737-3649, to be used wisely! home: 738-0606 PLEASE NOTE NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS: yalleau@coas.oregonstate.edu "When you're far from everything, you're getting closer to the essential" -----Original Message----- From: owner-apisto@admin.listbox.com [mailto:owner-apisto@admin.listbox.com]On Behalf Of Mike & Diane Wise Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 10:13 AM To: apisto@listbox.com Subject: Re: tank with apistos cacatuoides Alfredo Figueiredo wrote: > I'm from Portugal (and..by the way, don't expect to defeat us in the World Cup > :). Alfredo, I believe you - but is that not the same thing many in France said about Senegal? ;-) > The temperature is 26ºC all the time, I feed them frozen adult artemia > salina (shrimps). Personally, I prefer a more varied diet. A. cacatuoides is not a choosy fish when it comes to food. > The nitrates are very very low, almost undetectable (I'm not sure excatly). > The hardness is about 5ºdH Those values seem acceptable. > I'm going to take some pictures now of the fishes, I would like to hear from > you to decide what to do...add male? add a. agassizi (which is a species I > love)? I always worry about inbred fish. Could the more intense colors found in females be testosterone related? I'm do not mean artificially induced, but genetically bred into the strain. All females produce testosterone. It is just lower than the amount of estrogen. In these domestic strains, if testosterone is related to the color of the female then perhaps it also affects their fertility. I don't know if this is true, but it is something to think about. Mike Wise > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. > For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, > email apisto-request@listbox.com. apisto-digest@listbox.com also available. > Web archives at http://lists.thekrib.com/apisto > Trading at http://blox.dropship.org/mailman/listinfo/apisto_trader ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. apisto-digest@listbox.com also available. Web archives at http://lists.thekrib.com/apisto Trading at http://blox.dropship.org/mailman/listinfo/apisto_trader ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. apisto-digest@listbox.com also available. Web archives at http://lists.thekrib.com/apisto Trading at http://blox.dropship.org/mailman/listinfo/apisto_trader