I got mine from Oliver.... had 1 male 3 females... had them in a 20 long with lots of flower pots and plants..... they didnt beat on each other, just never spawned...... the male was the smallest fish of the group... I actually found them very easy to sex once you knew what to look for..... my male had no black markings in his pelvic fins , very much like a panduro or nijsenni..... just orange coloration. Females had jet black markings in those fins. I used some young betta Enisae as dither fish as they could handle anything the apistos could dish out plus hold their own if they wanted to. Maybe i should have eventually tried the apistos on their own..... but i've had good luck using mouthbrooding bettas as tank mates for my apistos.... they stay in different levels of the tank and each species spawns without bothering the other...... My Elizabethae group has Betta Edithae as its tank mates.... Incas have Betta Foerschi.... Viejita have Betta Strohi Seems to work for me.... Good luck with your fish... John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. apisto-digest@listbox.com also available. Web archives at http://lists.thekrib.com/apisto Trading at http://blox.dropship.org/mailman/listinfo/apisto_trader