I've been keeping _M. ramirezi_ for some time now, and like quite a few have often been disappointed at the initial attempts to induce "proper" parental behaviors in new breeding pairs. It's almost like trying to "deprogram" a (insert religious sect of choice) convert at times. But in reading some of the banter tossed back- and- forth concerning collecting trips, habitats, population densities, etc., I seem to have stumbled on a technique that works amazingly well on these intended breeders. I crowd the (insert expletive of choice) out of the tank. The tank I'm working with now is one of my "standard" 15 gal longs, measuring 30*12*12 in. Current population: 6 _M. ramirezi_, 4 _M. altispinosa_, 22 _P. axelrodi_, 1 _S. nigriventris_ and even a handful of Glass Shrimp. The results have been similar and easily repeatable for four differing groups of Rams now under these conditions. Pair formations seem more spontaneous, and breeding behaviors soon follow. From the very first nest, the pair make honest attempts to protect the clutch, sharing in normal guard and patrol behavior. Naturally at such densities losses are high, but this leads merely to another clutch where the choice of location often improves along with a better "sense" of the competetion. They seem to be more successful at getting the eggs to the fry stage by then and at least one of the pairs will end up with a small cloud of fry. But again, it's hard to protect them against multi- directional "flash" attacks and you'll lose those fry too. Yet the Rams do *try*, which seems all too rare with Rams available today. I'm assuming it's the crowded conditions that trigger the responses, but I haven't collected enough information to be able to fix the cause. Two readily- formulated SWAGs easily come to mind, though. Large numbers and increased competetion may reinforce an innate territorality where team efforts increase the ability to protect scarce resources, to which progeny becomes an extension. Or it may boil down to a case of simple stress reaction, where paired behavior increases the likelihood of survival for your gene pool. Observation of the pairs seems to indicate more of the former, as their health and other typical behavior patterns appear unaffected. But I do know this: A pair of new Rams, after making three attempts in a full tank, can be transferred to their own breeder along with a few Cardinals for dither/targets, and they become a joy to behold as parents again. I'm hoping to continue this through a few clutches for each pair to determine if the pattern "sticks". And on subsequent generations for possible reinforcement. But I was wondering if anyone else had noticed this pattern before? And if the technique might be adaptable as a possibility with some of the more difficult species (true aggression taken into consideration)? Oh, I can provide detailed tank specs - they seem to really enjoy this particular environment. -Y- David A. Youngker http://www.mindspring.com/~nestor10 nestor10@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!