Re: Rams de-selection

["Mike Jacobs" <mikejacobs@ij.net>]

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Gomberg <gomberg@wcf.com>
To: apisto@majordomo.pobox.com <apisto@majordomo.pobox.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: Rams de-selection


>You don't understand the argument, so why not keep out of it?  Go learn
>some natural selection.
>
>At 03:25 PM 11/4/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>Dave Gomberg wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe the parents knew the fry would not survive better than you did????
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Dave.........this is not aimed directly at you.  Rather,  I've sat by for
>3-4-5
>>days reading all of these notes to NEVER pull the eggs from apistos
>because we
>>will now have a generation of miscreant apistos that won't know their
mother
>>from their father.
>>
>>Absolutly every time I get in a new apisto I pull the first 1-2 batches
>until I
>>feel I have enough  to 1) keep the species in a group for myself.....10-15
>  2)
>>give some to friends and 3)  sell a few to the LFS because he is a nice
>man and
>>wants apistos.
>>
>>After that, you know what...........the parents always seem capable of
>raising
>>the young, and I have 2-3 generations of from the original pair and the
>same is
>>true.
>>
>>I have been breeding and selling angels for about 10 years.  Two of the
>strains
>>I have are 10 years old..........99% of the angels I raise are taken away
>from
>>the pair and artifically raised......that is until I can't hold anymore
and I
>>leave them in with the parents and the parents raise them like nothing
ever
>>happened.
>>
>>What I've observed for 10+ years is certianly not emperical evidence, but
I
>>don't see any EVIDENCE to the contrary either other than  ".....well,
people
>>told me.....".
>>
>>How long do you think these fish keep track of their young in the wild.
>>According to some people you would think the youn apistos stay with the
>mother
>>for 3-4 weeks.  I really don't think so.  In talking with people who have
>been
>>chest deep in the Amazon river and NEVER seen a mother with babies, the
>current
>>is at times overwhelming and I really don't think the young hang around
>for more
>>than 2-3-4-5 days after free swimming.  When I was a young boy I use to
>creep up
>>on bluegill and bass in farm ponds and watch them endlessly as they
>corraled the
>>young.  I would get to watch such a female for about 3-4-5 days after free
>>swimming and then all of the young will have been eaten or they went their
>own
>>way.  Now this was in a lazy old farm pond......in a river with the
current
>>sweeping things away I think we have to revisit the thoughts about the
>length of
>>time parents keep the fry and the effect that care has on the young.  I've
>had
>>mothers keep fry for a month.......but not in the wild!
>>
>>Take your shots but be civil please!
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
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Mr Gomberg,

I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE ARGUMENT????  Well, well, well, as the preacher
preaches there is always someone in the rear pew asking for proof, and
spouting that there must be proof before I believe "the truth", give me
proof.....give me proof.  Give me proof, Mr Gomberg....not some spouted
version of what you believe to be your version of natural
selection.........while you assume that us lowley peons don't understand
such brain wrentching material.  Sir, I simply stated that in my 30+ years
of breeding fish I had a few points of view.  They always did call me crazy
sir, but I personally will listen to anyone who has 30+ years of successful
anything.............even if it differs with what I believe....because
usually we can then have a nifty conversation and put two 30+ heads together
and come to a logical conclusion, but you don't seem to have the potential
to deal with opinions other than yours.  A man with such an ego couldn't
therefore pass up the following proposition:  I'll write a $2000 check and
you write a $2000 check.....we both will give it to a neutral person.  Upon
recieving the checks the neutral person will notify you that the checks are
in and accounted for...........you then find two pair of egg laying Rams
that eat their eggs/fry at some point in the process............you will get
the fish to me anyway you choose, honerably....if you are.... and I will
spawn them and they WILL raise their young to about 2 + weeks after
free-swimming,  and prove to you that given the right water........pH,
hardness, temp, light, enviroment, and all...........they have not lost the
"inate parental behavior" you think they have, they want a different
environment than what you have given them............most aquarist don't
understand that what is necessary for good parental behavior in fish is for
the fish to be happy with the surroundings not the aquarist.  Have you ever
noticed Mr. Gomberg, that wild rams tend to be seasonal.........not entirely
but during certian times of the year the younger stud pairs  are more
availiable.................they are more comfortable with different lighting
than most people give them.........lighting to some fish is as important as
pH!

In all fairness I should tell you that in the period of time I was raising
angels and other fish.........I also raised about 4-5 YEARS worth of rams
(thousands).....about 3-4 generations removed from the original.....all of
the eggs were removed from the parents because at that time money was
critical.  I will upon request supply you with names and phone numbers of
people that can verify this.........just being up front.

BUT, you might just be right..........you with all of your "book learning"
and abilities to comprehend those far reaching arguments, Mr
Gomberg.......in which case.....you win $2000, and I applaude you.  Sir the
pressure is on me......not you!  But one more word of caution, you are in my
world now..............spawning fish is my world.  I don't give big
lectures, I'm not as famous as some people....I don't even care to be.  But
sir,  I turned to apistos because some were extremely difficult, not because
someone gave me some or I just got done with guppies.  Knowing trendy people
and impressing people is not my cup of tea..........I really shy away from
all of that, that's why you don't hear much from me on this
list..........but count me in when there is a bet to spawn and raise
fish........this will be fun!

Sorry to drag all of you apisto people into this, you guys are
super!.............now I'm really sorry I replied to the question I did,
because I lurk more than talk.......but I thought this was a "list" where
opinions were expressed and appreciated...................I kinda knew
someone would take me to "task" for my opinion, that's as it should
be...........that's okay...........I really enjoy good conversations.  But
Mr Gomberg all but called me stupid..........and quite frankly I was
offended, I suppose not that it matters if I was offended.....certianly a
man that would do that doesn't care.

Mike



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