Derek very often in my experience the A.ortmanni offered by the LFS are actualy A.sp.'rotpunkt'. I know of three suppliers that do this. Many of these places are not the best at Apisto nomenclature so we are left with wrongly identified fish. From the rough description you gave it is very possable that that is what you have A.sp.'rotpunkt'. Look at the Krib site once again and look under the heading on giving descriptions of fish and I will try to help you more. Good Luck. === David Sanchez Casselberry, FL http://www.mindspring.com/~barbax barbax2@yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!