I have to add my 2 cents here on the topic of tubes down. Helen mentioned that if one has it's tube down this doesn't happen when there is only one sex present. I have to disagree somewhat here. I'm not sure as far as Thayeri or Dorsiger are concerned, but I've seen "Pairs" of 2 females with tubes down laying eggs along with 2 female discus doing the say. No males present in either tank. I think that with the need to get rid of eggs it won't matter to some species whether a male is present or not. I've had single ram female lay eggs with no male present. Never had this happen with any Apistos yet, but i say yet. Fuel for thought, not trying to be a smart .... here Helen. John ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!