John, I agree with you John and you are right to say what you have but in Bob's answer he stated >>you have to feed mature specimens heavily and look at the tube that sticks out the bottom<< My impression of this (if you are new to cichlids) is that if you feed heavily the tubes fall down which we know is not always the case. The poor owner could wait forever to find out which sex they have. I have owned and bred Dorsigerus and Curviceps and the males have longer fin extensions and they are slightly larger than the females. If you have both sexes present it is easy to tell the difference but if you don't - well who knows. Helen cr >I have to add my 2 cents here on the topic of tubes down. Helen mentioned that if one has it's tube down this doesn't happen when there is only one sex present. I have to disagree somewhat here. I'm not sure as far as Thayeri or Dorsiger are concerned, but I've seen "Pairs" of 2 females with tubes down laying eggs along with 2 female discus doing the say. No males present in either tank. I think that with the need to get rid of eggs it won't matter to some species whether a male is present or not. I've had single ram female lay eggs with no male present. Never had this happen with any Apistos yet, but i say yet. Fuel for thought, not trying to be a smart .... here Helen. John< ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!