Thanks a ton David I have two big oak trees next to my house that are going to become my best source for caves LOL I am thinking of using the leaves in a bare bottom tank do you think this would work well? Thanks for your advice. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!