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RE: [GSAS-Member] Algae control; Vitamin D

John:

I think that is great that there are so many plant nuts on this list.  HAP
should be overflowing in no time!  As to your algae tank, the best slogan I
have encountered yet is "Nothing good happens quickly."  So make changes
slowly and see how the tank behaves.  How much you need to dose carbon,
nitrogen etc and traces is largely a function of lighting and plant growth
so beware that you are going to be chasing the "limiting step" for quite a
while as you hone nutrients, growth, and carbon levels.  The rainbow of
algae you will see.  There is some thought that if you compare upgrading
lighting and adding carbon the carbon is the better option.  The good news
is that the DIY yeast method take time but is not expensive and the
compressed is expensive but does not take time.  I had a bubble ladder on 60
gal for a long time with 2 gal and to be honest compressed is not too
different.  Part A is:

http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=19239;category_id
=2873 

And part B is an airtight bottle with sugar, yeast, water, and bicarbonate.
You control how fast by the ratio of sugar/yeast but a bottle will last 2
weeks to a month (alternate recharge).  Upgrade when you are tired of
swapping bottles.

On my tanks I underfilter.  Sponge only for mechanical filtration to remove
some of the floating crud and provide circulation.  Because the filter is
just for moving water I can wash the sponge in hot water as I am not reliant
on biological or chemical filtration in the filter as the plants do it for
me.  My tank is stuffed with plants to the point were the fish need a map so
YMMV.

There are several websites devoted to identifying plant deficiencies.  This
is the general idea:

http://www.hydrofarm.com/content/articles/factors_plant.html

I am not sure about your UV question but I personally do not use actinic
bulbs in the planted aquarium.

Some of the "opposite ends of the spectrum" are Diana Walstad
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967377307/002-0430175-0081645)
featuring low tech rich substrate and Tom Barr (link earlier) where task one
is get the CO2 to ~30 ppm...  So take a look at the styles and see what you
would like to achieve.  These (or others) would be great invited speakers!

-Paul
 

This discussion has been helpful.

Since my Nitrate measures "0," I'll try to raise that. If necessary, 
I'll then add potassium salts.
Magnesium is next, in the form of epsom salts.
I recently added calcium carbonate (crushed seashells) to increase the 
pH, so calcium should
be plentiful.
My substrate is fluorite.
I'm not quite ready to invest time and money in CO2 equipment. If 
anyone has some used equipment
for sale, though, I'd consider it.

My canister filter is 2/3 carbon and 1/3 zeollite. I emptied that out 
this morning. I think the carbon filtration
adsorbed a lot of minerals and trace minerals, and the zeolite and 
carbon absorbed the available nitrogen.

My three other tanks have had none of the green water problem. I'm 
scratching my head trying to remember
what I did differently. The zeolite is the only difference that I can 
think of - I used it because I ran out of carbon,
so I topped off the holder with zeolite.

If I was looking at deficiencies in people, I'd know better how to 
correct the imbalances. Considering the genetic
similarities between people and fish (and even plants, if I remember 
correctly), it should be fairly easy to learn
what specific nutritional deficiencies look like in fish and plants. 
Hole-in-the-head disease in Oscars, for instance,
is caused by Vitamin D deficiency according to two books (including the 
Handbook of Fish Diseases) that I read.
Does anyone know if fish create Vitamin D in their "skin" when exposed 
to the sun, as we do? If so, do any of the
available fluorescent lights provide the wavelengths necessary to 
produce it?

John


On Mar 17, 2005, at 11:25 AM, Paul M. Wallace wrote:

> John:
>
> I agree with everything that has been posted.  You need to feed your 
> plants!
> Another version of PMDD is the Estimative Index of Dosing by Tom Barr
> http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1 which might be of
> interest.  In some circles a distinction is made if CO2 injected.  For 
> tanks
> without CO2 a "rich" substrate (soil under gravel) can be used so that 
> the
> nutrients are in the substrate and not the water column.  If CO2 is 
> used the
> rich substrate can be relaxed to something like Fluorite or Eco 
> Complete and
> dosing nutrients into the water column like PMDD or EI.
>
> -Paul
>
> Thank you Mark. That paper was most useful. I am pasting in below some
> of the points from the paper that I will try, including removing the
> carbon filtration and discontinuing use of Aquasafe. Maybe Paul's
> response which I am awaiting will further elucidate important
> considerations.
> John
>
> (c) Enriched substrates are probably the best means of supplying
> phosphates to plants provided steps are taken to minimize the leakage
> of phosphate into the water column. Substrate fertilizers such as Pond
> Tabs should be buried deep in the substrate where their nutrients are
> preferentially available to plant roots. Substrate circulation should
> be minimized to prevent phosphate from leaching too rapidly into the
> water column. Avoid gravel cleaning and other substrate disturbances if
> at all possible. Eliminating substrate circulation completely would not
> be desirable (even if it were possible) because supplementary
> fertilizers are usually added to the water and must be transported to
> the roots somehow.
>
> Tap water is not recommended as a source of trace elements because it
> may be deficient in one or more elements, and rapid plant growth is
> likely to deplete the elements far more quickly than they can be
> replaced.
>
>   Certain water treatment products (Aquasafe, NovAqua) should be 
> avoided
> as they bind metals (including iron), making them unavailable to
> plants. They may also contain phosphate buffers. Simple dechlorinators
> or products such as Amquel are a better choice for treating tap water
> during water changes.
>
>   Carbon filtration may remove necessary trace elements from the water.
> With regular water changes and good plant growth, carbon filtration is
> not necessary and should be omitted.
>
>   (i) As a general principle, avoid adding fertilizers, water
> treatments, or any other products to one's aquarium unless the products
> completely disclose the concentration of each ingredient present.
> Otherwise, there is no way to knowing what effect (if any!) these
> products will have on the aquarium's inhabitants.
>
>
>
>
> On Mar 17, 2005, at 7:52 AM, Mark Pearlscott wrote:
>
>> John,
>>
>> Since this seems to be a hot topic, and my guess is that lots of
>> people don't know lots about it just yet, here is the original paper
>> on PMDD (http://www.cam.org/~tomlins/algae.html).  This should give
>> you all the information you need to know to get your tank in balance
>> and all plants growing like weeds.  If you need a supplier of
>> nutrients, try Eco-Elements (I'm pretty sure that is the name), a
>> hydroponic supply store up here in Shoreline (off 175th and I-5).
>>
>> My experience with green water is that the tank is "usually" deficient
>> in Nitrogen.  So, going through the method of checking what is
>> missing, you might want to confirm this for your tank before adding
>> Nitrogen (which seems counter-intuitive).
>>
>> With that being said, you might just want something fast and easy, and
>> there is such a ting.  Keep the micron filter or paper filter in you
>> canister, and add a "particulate clumper" to the tank (available at
>> most pet stores).  With the clumper added, all the little pieces of
>> algae stick together, and then are able to be filtered out by the
>> filter.  Just make sure to clean your filter after the algae has come
>> out of the water column.  I had a friend use this, and it was gone in
>> one afternoon.
>>
>> Good luck,
>>
>> Mark Pearlscott
>>
>>
>>
>> John Ruhland wrote:
>>
>>> In the past few weeks, I've had an algae problem as well. Rather than
>>>  coating any surfaces, it simply turns my water green. While it is a
>>> pretty color, I am unable to see anything more than about 4-5 inches
>>> from the glass. I've added two filters to the original filter. The
>>> pleated paper filter that came with the Magnum canister filter, and
>>> that I was told would turn water crystal clear, has not filtered out
>>> anything, so it must be only a few microns in size. Besides the
>>> magnum  filter, I have a Magnum HOT, and a Marineland Emperor with
>>> Bio-wheel.  At first I changed the water every day or two and added a
>>> bit of salt,  thinking that would slow the growth of algae, but since
>>> that did not  show much improvement, I decided to wait it out. Any
>>> recommendations  would be helpful. Anita recommended getting tiny
>>> organisms that would  eat the algae.
>>>
>>> Fortunately, the fish seem to be doing alright.
>>> Thank you,
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is the tank where I put most of the plants I got at the plant sale
>>>  as well.
>>> On Mar 16, 2005, at 2:56 PM, auntie.fran@netzero.net wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, Barbie...I'll see if I can find one.  There's a synodontis
>>>> in  the tank -- got him as a bottom feeder -- but I'm not certain
>>>> which  type, but he sure doesn't eat algae!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional.
>>>>
>>>> -- "Barbie" <barbie@fishaholics.org> wrote:
>>>> Synodontis petricola eat hair algae also, and would be much more
>>>> suited to life with african cichlids, IMO.
>>>>
>>>> Barbie
>>>>
>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>   From: auntie.fran@netzero.com
>>>>   To: gsas-member@thekrib.com
>>>>   Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 11:11 AM
>>>>   Subject: Re: [GSAS-Member] Algae control
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Will apple snails eat beard algae?  And, will they survive in a
>>>> tank  with blue daffodils and yellow labs?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional.
>>>>
>>>>   -- "A JACOBSON" <amjacobson52@msn.com> wrote:
>>>>   Shortly after the plant auction I was setting up a 55 gallon tank
>>>> and cannibalizing plants from my other tanks to fill it.  Sure
>>>> enough,  the tank I took the most plants out of suddenly was being
>>>> overwhelmed  by several types of algae.  I immediately crammed in a
>>>> bunch more  plants and tossed in a baby SAE.  The increased plant
>>>> load stopped the  algae spread in its tracks, and now the baby SAE,
>>>> the 5 otos, the  large SAE, and the snails I no longer bother, are
>>>> slowly cleaning the  algae from the plants -- I'm also snipping off
>>>> leaves that are  completely algae-covered, so they can concentrate
>>>> on only partially  covered leaves.  And it seems to be working.
>>>>
>>>>   I bought a 30 gallon long tank a couple of months ago from someone
>>>>  who had let it go downhill.  It had two beautiful pieces of bogwood
>>>>  covered with a dwarf java fern, but every leaf was black from
>>>> algae.   Same with the anubias and the sag, and the glass of the
>>>> aquarium  itself.  Did the same thing.  Cut off the worst leaves
>>>> (and every time  I go in there I trim a little more, giving the new
>>>> leaves a chance to  grow), tossed in 2 SAE, and added a field of
>>>> crypts that I bought for  that purpose at the plant auction.  It's
>>>> not quite there yet (crypts  are still looking pretty forlorn), but
>>>> it is SOOO much better.  A few  apple snails are surviving, despite
>>>> the loaches (maybe there are too  big for the loaches?) and they are
>>>> going a yoeman's job of clearing  off the remaining black on the
>>>> leaves.
>>>>
>>>>   Anita
>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>     From: welenofsky@comcast.net<mailto:welenofsky@comcast.net>
>>>>     To: GSAS Member<mailto:gsas-member@thekrib.com>
>>>>     Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 6:56 AM
>>>>     Subject: [GSAS-Member] Algae control
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     Since the plant auction, I've had all different types of algae
>>>> plaguing my tank. What kinds of fish besides SAE will help control
>>>> it?  Where can I get these fish locally? Does anyone have any SAE or
>>>> other  algae-eating fish they don't want anymore? I have discus in
>>>> the tank.  I may just take it down and bleach the plants and/or
>>>> strip the leaves  off.
>>>>
>>>>     Susan
>>>>     _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>
>>>   Dr. John F. Ruhland
>>> The Natural Health Medical Clinic
>>> 4002 - 25th Avenue S, Seattle, WA 98108
>>> 206-723-4891
>>> www.drruhland.com
>>>
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>>
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>
>  
>  
> Dr. John F. Ruhland
> The Natural Health Medical Clinic
> 4002 - 25th Avenue S, Seattle, WA 98108
> 206-723-4891
> www.drruhland.com
>
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>

 
 
Dr. John F. Ruhland
The Natural Health Medical Clinic
4002 - 25th Avenue S, Seattle, WA 98108
206-723-4891
www.drruhland.com

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