Re: Missing Things...

["James Purchase" <jpurch@interlog.com>]

Looks like I've ruined JimC.'s weekend...

> I given a lot of time and some effort in getting together the list of
clubs
> in my area and international (that worked in the English lang..)

I'm sure that everyone here appreciates the time you have devoted to this
effort. There are a number of people who are working on this event, devoting
many hours of time toward seeing it become a reality.

> I given
> Dave V. a list of dealers that would and have donate prizes in the past to
> other groups.  Yes membership to AGA and magazines subscriptions are great
> and not to hard to deal with. don't let me think I am wasting my time and
> resources here.

I haven't checked out Dave's list lately, so I didn't notice your list of
dealers. Getting the lists together is the first step. Contacting the
individual companies is another whole ball of wax.

>> "Would levying a nominal "entry fee" ($5.00/entry) make this more
"serious"
>> or more or less likely to garner attention and attract entries?"
>
> As to limiting entries, YES!  I know of people who will enter a fish
contest
> with every fish they own in a class to "Go For The Odds" to win.  This is
(I
> thought) to  show our/their  "Best",  not to be scanning every tank I own
> with plants or Bio-systems, I have 14 that I could enter and feel that I
> could place on most.  Now multiply that by 3 or 4 views, Hello that is
50's
> or so pictures from me alone to scan. (I have a few systems that I
wouldn't
> never enter, but another would think that I/they should or could), And I
> think handling moneys by snail mail to pay for entries presents many
> problems of lost mail or exchanging monies rate internationally.  But
would
> help in paying for mailing out something to the winners.  Then maybe $5 is
> too much?

Much angst has been displayed over the idea of putting an upper limit on the
number of entries which we will accept. I know that I almost had a heart
attack when I first read about it. But upon reflection, I have to agree that
Karen was right in suggesting it and I believe that I was correct in giving
the decision to Erik to set any such limit. At this point in time we have no
way of knowing how many entries are going to be submitted, nor do we have
any idea of the ratio of hard copy entries to electronic submissions. We DO
know that each submission is going to consist of multiple images, between
2-5 each. Every single image which gets submitted as a "hard copy" print or
slide is going to have to be scanned and then "tweaked" to show at it's
best. In the hands of a skilled operator, each individual image may not take
much time to prepare but if we are faced with thousands of individual images
it does become a daunting task.

We have also spoken of "scanning volunteers" and a number of people have
stepped forward with offers to help. However there is also the issue of
getting hard copy images TO these folks in order for them to scan and then
getting them BACK (both the scans and the hard copy images) to a cental
point (probably Erik in Seattle). This group is not local to one another -
we have people from three countries on two different continents. These
prints and slides would have to be packaged securely and mailed or couriered
from Erik to the volunteers and then sent back once the work was completed.
The possibility of things getting lost in the mail or damaged goes up
exponentially every time something has to be physically moved from one place
to another. Packaging and mailing of packages of images could cost quite a
bit of money and we have absolutely NO WAY of being able to estimate this
cost in advance.

Karen, while wearing her AGA MC Chair hat, has said that the AGA would NOT
be very happy to have to write multiple small dollar amount checks to
reimbourse folks for postage costs. It was stated in another context but it
would probably apply equally in this instance. She has also intimated that
we should arrange this so that we can present a concrete dollar figure as
the upper limit on costs to the AGA for this event. Without an upper limit
on the number of entries, we have no way of being able to do that (I am
ignoring, for the moment, the issue of Entry Fees offsetting Costs.

Another factor I want people to be aware of is that while scanners are now
common, the ability to use them well might not be as easy to come by - I
know that I'm not very good at using mine. This could mean that Erik would
be required to "re-tweak" images scanned by "volunteers". This may or may
not be an issue - but it is one which has to be considered.

So, I would like to caution peple about getting too upset about a limit
being placed on the maximum number of entries which can be handled in this -
at least for the first year. Until we have an idea of the ratio of
electronic submissions to hard copy submissions and we (or rather, Erik) has
an idea of how much time this is all going to take out of HIS schedule, then
I think that we are going to have to concur and not get too vocal about
leaving this open to as many entries as possible. Unless Erik is prepared to
deal with thousands of images, we have no right to presume that. Erik had
suggested a range of between 300 - 500 individual entries (meaning between
600 - 2500 individual images). _I_ selected the lower figure (300) but I'm
open to Erik adjusting that upwards if he feels that he can handle it - but
I'm _only_ open to Erik adjusting it. After all, he is the one who is going
to have to do the work dealing with the images and the scanning.

> "Do you think that doing away with mailed out ribbons or certificates
would
> hurt the event? Would people be less likely to enter if they know that we
> are not going to give them a prize, in the traditional sense of the word?
> Would notification of their efforts via the Web be enough?"
>
> I think you know where I stand on this point.  I planned to spent more
time
> on the computer this weekend to change my list of clubs to weed out the
ones
> that can't work with out E-mail, and to make sure The point of contacts
have
> E-mail.  Now I wonder if I am making a mistake and wasting my time and
> resources on something I wouldn't even enter as a contest.    I hate
getting
> upset at the start of a long weekend.  JiM C.

Sorry to have upset you Jim, but things like this have to be discussed and
there is no time like the present to do so, however upsetting they may be.
You are not the first to say that you are worried about wasting your time,
and you probably won't be the last, but I can assure you that I have devoted
far more of MY time to this effort than you have, and I'm not complaining.

I would love to have a HUGE event with lots of BIG donated prizes to give
away to HUNDREDS of winners. It all sounds so enticing and exciting when you
are sitting in your study in front of your computer and typing e-mail
messages back and forth. But when you come out of cyber-space and begin to
breath real air once again you have to look at the logistics of being able
to pull this thing off on a scale which can be managed given the resources
we have available to us. I am not counting on, and I doubt that the AGA MC
would be impressed by, the idea that loads of volunteers are going to
magically appear once this receives approval. Scores of people are hardly
likely to come knocking on our e-mail in-boxes with offers of help. We have
a small group and have to scale things so that WE can manage all of the
tasks associated with this event ourselves. The AGA is not going to do this
for us - we are the ones who will be running the event and doing all of the
work related to it.

Donated prizes, while a wonderful idea, present problems which have been
mentioned before - first we have to write to the companies we hope to get
prizes from and we have to allow sufficient time for them to respond back to
us. I have no idea how long this process would take - it could be a month,
it might take several. We would then have to either arrange for the storing,
shipping and receiving of those packages. Shipping costs could be VERY
expensive and that cost cannot be estimated in advance. Karen has cautioned
us about this and I have heard what she has had to say about it.

If we went whole hog and obtained lots of prizes and incur lots of expenses
in mailing them out but only receive a few entries, the income from Entry
Fees would not offset the Costs associated with the event. The AGA would be
saddled with the debt and they would NOT be happy with that. Nor are they
likely to approve anything which leaves open ANY possibility of that
happening.

If we are going to go with one or two donated prizes, then the logistical
problem of dealing with lots of smaller packages goes down as does the cost
factor, but again, these things cannot be accurately estimated at this point
in time (not by _me_ anyway - if someone _else_ can do it they haven't yet
come forward with any information).

>From what Karen has said, I _assume_ that the AGA MC is going to want an
accurate accounting of costs UP FRONT before they would consider approval of
_any_ proposal. They don't want suprizes, and I don't blame them. Any
organization being asked for money wants to know in advance the amount they
are being asked for. Without limiting and refining our ideas surrounding
this we can't do that. That's why this discussion is taking place now.

As an alternative to donated prizes (or at least to a reliance on donated
prizes for ALL the awards), ribbons and/or certificates were suggested.
Things like this are much easier to manage and estimate costs for - Karen
gave us a figure of $200.00 if our event was to have 20 different categories
for submissions. I estimate that Certificates (to the winners) would cost
approximately the same amount but would be more expensive to mail (mailing
tubes are more expensive to buy and mail than padded envelopes). They are
also easier to replace should they get lost or damaged in the mail than
would a large (and possibly expensive) merchandise prize.

Magazine subscriptions are a definate possibility which could offer "value"
(at least in some eyes) and be easy for us to dela with logistically.
Whether or not they excite you isn't the issue. If you want to volunteer to
contact all of the manufacturers on your list asking for donations, set
aside half of your garage to store donated merchandise prizes and then to
package each securely and send out the individual prizes to the ultimate
winners, please let us know. If you can't do that - someone _else_ has to do
it. If no one does, nobody has the right to get upset when the idea gets
dropped as unworkable.

Another issue surrounding merchandise prizes which has only been given
passing mention of is the time lag between our asking for them and our
receiving confirmation of those prizes. We CANNOT start to publicize this
event until we KNOW everything about it, and that includes any prizes which
might be awarded to the winners. I don't think _anyone_ would enter a
contest where they were told "We _might_ be giving away some merchandise
prizes but we're not quite sure what they are yet". We have to KNOW these
things in advance. This affects the timing of the event - and that timing is
already now looking like 30 April, 2000 as the earliest possible cutoff
date.

Erik has said that he shall have more to say on the issue of prizes once he
is back in the country - I'm eagerly awaiting his input. I would _dearly_
love to be able to have _some_ merchandise prizes to give away, but I
haven't seen a viable way of doing it _yet_. At least not for _this_ year -
several folks have suggested that manufacturers might be more likely to give
us prizes in subsequent years, once we have a track record. But we have to
do this at least ONCE first, possibly without "real" prizes. When I
mentioned the figure of $1,000.00 as being a possible upper limit on our
costs - and incidentially that quite possibly could have included the idea
of the AGA buying some prizes in lieu of depending on donations, Karen quite
quickly shot me out of the water - that figure is not small change. Her
cautions reminded me of the need to keep my feet firmly planted on terra
firma which planning this - it is more important to identify what we can
manage rather than what we might _hope_ to accomplish.

I suggested doing away with actual awards of any kind as a means of guaging
how the group feels about the issue. It is obvious that nobody likes the
idea. But I think that your suggestion that you are "wasting your time" is
overstaing the issue - as I've said, I've put in far more time into this
than any of you have and I don't feel like I'm wasting _my_ time, or wasting
_yours_ either. These things have to be considered and discussed - they
can't be swept aside for fear they may upset someone. Anyone who is _that_
sensitive has already left the group or didn't join in the first place.

We have explored this idea for two months and are very close to finishing
things - unfortunately, some of the remaining issues are among the
thorniest. I returned our focus to our initial principles when I made my
suggestion of simplifying things by omitting prizes. If the group doesn't
like the idea, fine - it _was_ just an idea.

But someone is going to have to come forward with an WORKABLE idea or
alternative or we will have to go with ribbons. If we do that, we have to
charge an entry fee in order to pay for the costs of the contest, however
minimal. The Chair of the AGA MC has already said that she doesn't see this
event as being a "boost" to the AGA - at most it will be a "perk" for the
AGA membership. They might be willing to expend a few hundred dollars to
offer such a perk but are unlikely to go along with a massive, expensive
undertaking which has no upper limit on costs. One of _our_ jobs is to frame
this in such a fashion that we can satisfy the AGA MC as well as accomplish
what _we_ want.

Happy Labour Day!

James Purchase
Toronto



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