Re: [AGA-mcm] RE: [Aca-cadre] convention dvd bit the dust (fwd)

["S. Hieber" <shieber@yahoo.com>]

Of course, what the lawyer says is true; he presents the
legal situation in reasonably clear terms, imo. Although it
comes closer to thinking about htings in terms of enabling
rather than mearely protecdting, it doesn't go very far in
that direction.

It's a policy issue and not one that lawyers can decide. He
does not address the issue of what damages could be claimed
by a speaker. I think in virtually all cases they would be
small at best. If the talks made a lot of money and someone
stole significants parts of one and made lots of money,
there would be a quatitiative basis for harm to the
origianl speaker. But I don't think that's liekly to
happen. And certainly the DVDs, as good as they are, aren't
going to be enough to pay for filing the court papers to
sue.


sh
--- Erik Olson <erik@thekrib.com> wrote:

> Just to reinforce my earlier e-mail about being able to
> do NOTHING legally 
> in a small club, I'm breaking the law just by forwarding
> this message.
> 
> Frederick misses my point (being that speakers freak out
> when having to 
> sign things, and also that they're very protective of
> what they see as 
> their own work).
> 
> But his little tangent on copyright of images is
> something any speaker 
> should always look at carefully.  Pretty sure nearly
> everything on our AGA 
> disks are original or with permission (except for Shaun
> Winterton's talk 
> which stole a lot of pictures off other people... I know
> because many are 
> from the aquascaping contest site!  also my talk on the
> state of the AGA 
> in 2003 appropriated some low-res celebrity photos off
> Google).
> 
>    - Erik
> 
> -- 
> Erik Olson
> erik at thekrib dot com
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:52:44 -0400
> From: "Hamilton, Frederick (hamiltfn)"
> <HAMILTFN@ucmail.uc.edu>
> Reply-To: ACA Board and Cadre <aca-cadre@thekrib.com>
> To: ACA Board and Cadre <aca-cadre@thekrib.com>
> Subject: RE: [Aca-cadre] convention dvd bit the dust
> 
> Hi, All:
> 
> 
> 
> The proposed form gave us permission to use the talk, and
> contained
> assurances that the material was not infringing anyone
> else's rights. These
> are pretty basic and bare-bones types of items.
> 
> 
> 
> As I watched the presentations, it was apparent to me
> that many of the talks
> used "borrowed" material (maps, fish images, and even
> popular music), so I
> am not surprised that the authors grew concerned about
> the form.
> 
> 
> 
> Under the "fair use" doctrine in copyright, limited
> educational uses of
> material are generally permitted (when the quantity of
> the material used is
> small, the purpose of the use is for bona fide
> educational purposes, etc.)
> When admission is charged to view the material, the
> waters become a little
> more murky.  When this material is repackaged and resold,
> the waters become
> murkier still; I am not at all sure that we would have a
> sufficient defense
> to a lawsuit if, for example, an ACA-produced convention
> DVD containing
> "misappropriated" third-party images or text turned fell
> into the hands of
> the owner of the material.
> 
> 
> 
> Certainly, I would be hard pressed to defend our
> unlicensed use of Pink
> Floyd's "Money" on a "fair use" rationale.
> 
> 
> 
> Ultimately, it's a risk-benefit analysis.  The risk that
> National
> Geographic, for example, would sue the ACA (or a speaker)
> for unauthorized
> use of digitized maps of Africa during a talk at an ACA
> convention is
> probably fairly remote. As a technical matter, though,
> both the speaker and
> the ACA and TCA could have been sued by National
> Geographic following that
> talk.  When a talk which uses someone else's work without
> their permission
> is repackaged for sale, the risk increases significantly.
> 
> 
> 
> In my opinion, we have the right to expect that our
> speakers will only use
> materials which they have created, or for which they have
> gotten appropriate
> permission. However, in fairness to them, I agree that we
> should raise this
> issue early in the process, and not at the eleventh hour.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm certainly available to work on a "nicer" form.  
> Perhaps the most
> non-threatening form would seek permission to retain a
> copy of the talk(s)
> for archival or "internal" purposes, and leave it at
> that. We can also work
> out a profit-sharing arrangement in advance, but in such
> a case, I would
> even more strongly urge that the presenter(s) give us
> assurances about the
> non-infringing character of their talks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fred Hamilton, J.D.
> 
> Associate General Counsel
> 
> University of Cincinnati Medical Center
> 
> Phone:  (513) 558-7748
> 
> FAX:    (513) 558-0549
> 
> 
> 
> The foregoing message may contain attorney-client
> information. You should
> not copy, forward or otherwise distribute this email
> without the permission
> of the sender. If you are not the intended recipient, you
> should delete this
> message without retaining a copy and inform the sender of
> your action. Your
> cooperation will be appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
>    _____
> 
> From: aca-cadre-bounces@thekrib.com
> [mailto:aca-cadre-bounces@thekrib.com]
> On Behalf Of hawkimw@comcast.net
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:12 PM
> To: ACA Board and Cadre
> Subject: Re: [Aca-cadre] convention dvd bit the dust
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for your help on this-interesting
> 
> 
> 
> -------------- Original message --------------
> 
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > After reading the meeting minutes, I just wanted to
> follow up on the issue
> 
> > of selling convention DVD's.
> >
> > On Thursday night, I asked the speakers about having
> their talk on a DVD,
> > and they were mostly OK with it. But when I got to
> asking them to sign
> > the waiver, their demenour immediately changed to one
> of suspicion (the
> > extreme of which was that Spencer Jack made sure to
> physically delete his
> > and Jeff Cardwell's powerpoint shows off Larry
> Lampert's computer as soon
> > as he had finished presenting).
> >
> > As my primary goal has always been to get a good
> quality ARCHIVE of the
> > talks, I immediately dropped all plans and legal
> documents, and went back
> > to my traditional spiel of asking if I could tape talks
> FO! R ME and for
> the
> > local club's internal library only, and I got no
> further problems (except
> > from Spencer who I think now views me as a very
> suspicious person).
> >
> > Ironically, one of the folks who didn't want his talk
> made available
> > (Willem) asked if he could get a copy of Hernan's talk
> from Friday night.
> > Go figure.
> >
> > What does this mean in practical terms? First that Ron
> C was dead-on in
> > his analysis of speakers' protectiveness of their work.
> I doubt such a
> > plan will ever work unless (a) one works out a way for
> the speakers to
> > "get something out of it", (b) permission is granted
> waaaay in advance,
> > perhaps as part of the speaking arrangement, or (c) a
> significantly
> > "nicer" form is drafted. In any case, it's waaay to
> much work for me;
> > I'll stick to taping selected talks for my own archive
> (my primary goal
> > anyway) & making sure the live house sou! nd is the
> best possible for the
> > attendees.
> >
> > - Erik
> >
> > PS: Looking for Hernan's e-mail address so I can ask
> him for his
> > powerpoint slides.
> >
> > --
> > Erik Olson
> > erik at thekrib dot com
> > _______________________________________________
> > Aca-cadre mailing list
> > Aca-cadre@thekrib.com
> > http://lists.thekrib.com/mailman/listinfo/aca-cadre
> 
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