Re: [AGA-mcm] RE: [Aca-cadre] convention dvd bit the dust (fwd)

["S. Hieber" <shieber@yahoo.com>]

I think archival copies for club members use only could be
something stated up front as part of the deal when getting
a speaker. Certainly that is only time when the club will
have any bargaining leverage -- You want to come talk, you
have to let us keep an archival copy for our members. They
can then dicker about the speaking price but let's face it,
Hollywood agents are going to be knocking down doors to get
this stuff on a top 40 list. I don't mean to say that the
talks (or most of them) are great things, jsut that the
market value, in real dollars is very small.

sh

--- Larry Lampert <l_lampert@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I really don't know what to say about this. I see
> Fred's point's though. Many of our speakers were using
> maps and music without permission. 
> 
> However, any way you slice it it is just to much work.
> I don't like having speakers look at us like we are
> trying to steal their talk.
> 
> I don't see the purpose in having anyone sign anything
> if we are just using it for archival purposes,
> regardless of how friendly/nice it seems. If there is
> no financial gain anyone bringing suit will have
> diffciulty claiming a grievance against an
> educational/hobby organization merely trying to record
> its own history.
> 
> I think we need to look outside the hobby to see how
> other large hobby organizations handle this issue. Why
> reinvent the wheel. Certainly we are not the first
> zebra to cross this crocodile infested river......
> 
> Larry
> --- Erik Olson <erik@thekrib.com> wrote:
> 
> > Just to reinforce my earlier e-mail about being able
> > to do NOTHING legally 
> > in a small club, I'm breaking the law just by
> > forwarding this message.
> > 
> > Frederick misses my point (being that speakers freak
> > out when having to 
> > sign things, and also that they're very protective
> > of what they see as 
> > their own work).
> > 
> > But his little tangent on copyright of images is
> > something any speaker 
> > should always look at carefully.  Pretty sure nearly
> > everything on our AGA 
> > disks are original or with permission (except for
> > Shaun Winterton's talk 
> > which stole a lot of pictures off other people... I
> > know because many are 
> > from the aquascaping contest site!  also my talk on
> > the state of the AGA 
> > in 2003 appropriated some low-res celebrity photos
> > off Google).
> > 
> >    - Erik
> > 
> > -- 
> > Erik Olson
> > erik at thekrib dot com
> > 
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:52:44 -0400
> > From: "Hamilton, Frederick (hamiltfn)"
> > <HAMILTFN@ucmail.uc.edu>
> > Reply-To: ACA Board and Cadre
> > <aca-cadre@thekrib.com>
> > To: ACA Board and Cadre <aca-cadre@thekrib.com>
> > Subject: RE: [Aca-cadre] convention dvd bit the dust
> > 
> > Hi, All:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > The proposed form gave us permission to use the
> > talk, and contained
> > assurances that the material was not infringing
> > anyone else's rights. These
> > are pretty basic and bare-bones types of items.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > As I watched the presentations, it was apparent to
> > me that many of the talks
> > used "borrowed" material (maps, fish images, and
> > even popular music), so I
> > am not surprised that the authors grew concerned
> > about the form.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Under the "fair use" doctrine in copyright, limited
> > educational uses of
> > material are generally permitted (when the quantity
> > of the material used is
> > small, the purpose of the use is for bona fide
> > educational purposes, etc.)
> > When admission is charged to view the material, the
> > waters become a little
> > more murky.  When this material is repackaged and
> > resold, the waters become
> > murkier still; I am not at all sure that we would
> > have a sufficient defense
> > to a lawsuit if, for example, an ACA-produced
> > convention DVD containing
> > "misappropriated" third-party images or text turned
> > fell into the hands of
> > the owner of the material.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Certainly, I would be hard pressed to defend our
> > unlicensed use of Pink
> > Floyd's "Money" on a "fair use" rationale.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Ultimately, it's a risk-benefit analysis.  The risk
> > that National
> > Geographic, for example, would sue the ACA (or a
> > speaker) for unauthorized
> > use of digitized maps of Africa during a talk at an
> > ACA convention is
> > probably fairly remote. As a technical matter,
> > though, both the speaker and
> > the ACA and TCA could have been sued by National
> > Geographic following that
> > talk.  When a talk which uses someone else's work
> > without their permission
> > is repackaged for sale, the risk increases
> > significantly.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > In my opinion, we have the right to expect that our
> > speakers will only use
> > materials which they have created, or for which they
> > have gotten appropriate
> > permission. However, in fairness to them, I agree
> > that we should raise this
> > issue early in the process, and not at the eleventh
> > hour.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I'm certainly available to work on a "nicer" form.  
> > Perhaps the most
> > non-threatening form would seek permission to retain
> > a copy of the talk(s)
> > for archival or "internal" purposes, and leave it at
> > that. We can also work
> > out a profit-sharing arrangement in advance, but in
> > such a case, I would
> > even more strongly urge that the presenter(s) give
> > us assurances about the
> > non-infringing character of their talks.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Fred Hamilton, J.D.
> > 
> > Associate General Counsel
> > 
> > University of Cincinnati Medical Center
> > 
> > Phone:  (513) 558-7748
> > 
> > FAX:    (513) 558-0549
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > The foregoing message may contain attorney-client
> > information. You should
> > not copy, forward or otherwise distribute this email
> > without the permission
> > of the sender. If you are not the intended
> > recipient, you should delete this
> > message without retaining a copy and inform the
> > sender of your action. Your
> > cooperation will be appreciated.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >    _____
> > 
> > From: aca-cadre-bounces@thekrib.com
> > [mailto:aca-cadre-bounces@thekrib.com]
> > On Behalf Of hawkimw@comcast.net
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:12 PM
> > To: ACA Board and Cadre
> > Subject: Re: [Aca-cadre] convention dvd bit the dust
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Thanks for your help on this-interesting
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -------------- Original message --------------
> > 
> > > Hi folks,
> > >
> > > After reading the meeting minutes, I just wanted
> > to follow up on the issue
> > 
> > > of selling convention DVD's.
> > >
> > > On Thursday night, I asked the speakers about
> > having their talk on a DVD,
> > > and they were mostly OK with it. But when I got to
> > asking them to sign
> > > the waiver, their demenour immediately changed to
> > one of suspicion (the
> > > extreme of which was that Spencer Jack made sure
> > to physically delete his
> > > and Jeff Cardwell's powerpoint shows off Larry
> > Lampert's computer as soon
> > > as he had finished presenting).
> > >
> > > As my primary goal has always been to get a good
> > quality ARCHIVE of the
> > > talks, I immediately dropped all plans and legal
> > documents, and went back
> > > to my traditional spiel of asking if I could tape
> > talks FO! R ME and for
> > the
> > > local club's internal library only, and I got no
> > further problems (except
> > > from Spencer who I think now views me as a very
> > suspicious person).
> > 
> === message truncated ===
> 
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