Re: [AGA-Member] RE: Low-light tanks & CO2 (Heather J Gladney)

["S. Hieber" <shieber@yahoo.com>]

There is probably and error in mesurement as overdriving
decreases the energy efficiency while increasing the
output. 

sh


--- Paul M Wallace <pwallace@u.washington.edu> wrote:

> A really good example of "Literature on the Web" for ODNO
> power consumption and light.
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=21257
> 
> Note that 4XODNO T8 measured at 1.7X energy and 2.1X
> light!
> 
> -Paul
> 
> On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, stephane jousset wrote:
> 
> > On the topic of lighting, I have been experimenting
> (thanks to an AGA member 
> > letting me know that I only had medium lighting!) with
> ODNO light (Over-Driven 
> > Normal Ouptut).
> >
> > That is basically a DIY fluorescent light set-up where
> you cram the energy 
> > needed for 2 (or 3, or 4)tubes into 1. More output for
> less space. There is a 
> > risk as with any DIY, but if you are a tad electrically
> inclined, it is worth 
> > the time and effort. I got an extra 80-90 Watts over my
> 55-gal for $30 tops, 
> > and it's been going on for the past 6 months.
> Literature is out there on the 
> > Web.
> >
> > Stephane Jousset
> >
> >
> >> From: aga-member-request@thekrib.com
> >> Reply-To: aga-member@thekrib.com
> >> To: aga-member@thekrib.com
> >> Subject: AGA-Member Digest, Vol 16, Issue 1
> >> Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 06:54:34 -0700
> >> 
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> >> 
> >> Today's Topics:
> >> 
> >>    1. Re: Low-light tanks & CO2 (Heather J Gladney)
> >>    2. Re: Low-light tanks & CO2 (Heather J Gladney)
> >>    3. Re: Low-light tanks & CO2 (Heather J Gladney)
> >>    4. Re: Low-light tanks & CO2 (Heather J Gladney)
> >>    5. Re: Low-light tanks & CO2 (S. Hieber)
> >> 
> >> 
> >>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> 
> >> Message: 1
> >> Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 19:57:20 -0700
> >> From: Heather J Gladney <hgladney@comcast.net>
> >> Subject: Re: [AGA-Member] Low-light tanks & CO2
> >> To: Aquatic Gardeners Association Member Chat
> <aga-member@thekrib.com>
> >> Message-ID: <433DFB10.3070300@comcast.net>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
> format=flowed
> >> 
> >> Thankyou--that's good to know!  I was fretting a bit
> about spending
> >> money on lights.  Not just now, when things are tight
> for everybody!
> >> 
> >> Adam Michels wrote:
> >> 
> >> >Heather, I've heard from an experienced source that
> as long as you have
> >> >strong lighting to begin with, like you do (I run two
> 96W 6700K PCs on
> >> >my 55G and they're strong!), a 24" depth shouldn't be
> any different than
> >> >an 18" depth. I know a lot of people say otherwise,
> but the source
> >> >assured me that depth only becomes an issue when it
> much deeper; he
> >> >exaggerated and said "30 feet."
> >> >	Because my lights are 36" and my tank is 48" I place
> plants like
> >> >Hygrophila, Bacopa caroliniana, Rotala repens,
> Mayaca, Anubias,
> >> >Aponogetons, Sagittaria etc. in areas like the
> corners where the light
> >> >is less intense. I place my light-demanding plants
> directly under the
> >> >lighting, where it is most intense. You probably
> don't need more
> >> >lighting, unless you want it. It's like with reef
> tanks; you can get
> >> >away with keeping more light-demanding corals by
> keeping them closer to
> >> >the lights. The bunch plants will grow upward and
> then the 24" depth
> >> >will be more like 6" to their tips. Plant the
> shade-loving or
> >> >less-demanding plants in the corners. I know making
> the tank look well
> >> >designed is important but making the plants strong
> and healthy comes
> >> >first, right? My tank could definitely use a woman's
> touch; what a
> >> >jungle!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Adam
> >> >
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >From: aga-member-bounces@thekrib.com
> >> >[mailto:aga-member-bounces@thekrib.com] On Behalf Of
> Heather J Gladney
> >> >Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 7:10 PM
> >> >To: Aquatic Gardeners Association Member Chat
> >> >Subject: Re: [AGA-Member] Low-light tanks & CO2
> >> >
> >> >S. Hieber wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>--- Heather J Gladney <hgladney@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>>>I'd like to hear more about how to keep them, too.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>Currently got BGA in
> >> >>>my tank (bleahh!) and yet fairly high N going, so I
> >> >>>suspect that I let
> >> >>>my tank's TDS get too high, not enough water
> changes, for
> >> >>>discus.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>How high is high? Also, what are the phoshpate
> levels?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >At the risk of hijacking the thread here--file it in
> a new category?
> >> >I've been meaning to ask about this for awhile
> anyway...with your
> >> >indulgence, please...
> >> >I think this one's called, "not enough water
> changes", in spite of the
> >> >fact there's folks out there who insist you don't
> have to.
> >> >Last testing batch I did:
> >> > pH 6.7 (down from 7.0 over a month, using solenoid
> on pressurized CO2
> >> >system.)
> >> >KH 5 (up from 3 over the month)
> >> >GH 13- 16 (down from 15-18--I think this was Mg, it
> shot way up when I
> >> >added Epsom + Seachem Equilibrium.)
> >> >nitrate about .3 mg/l steadily,
> >> >nitrate about 50-60 mg/l (this is down from prior 100
> mg/l--when I added
> >> >
> >> >no ferts, it ran about 12 mg/l routinely).
> >> >phosphate 1.5 - 2.0 mg/l, probably closer to 2 (up
> from prior .5 - .67
> >> >mg/l)
> >> >iron test showed over 1 mg/l, more like 2 mg/l, which
> I understand is
> >> >high.
> >> >I found tap was running GH 4-5, generally around pH
> 7.0 -7.2.
> >> >Before this test, as I saw the BGA, I had been adding
> some extra
> >> >nitrates +  traces, and stopped when I got these
> results.
> >> >In the last month, at water changes I just added some
> dolomitic lime to
> >> >tapwater to maintain CO2/hardness, and stopped adding
> anything in the
> >> >last couple of weeks.
> >> >Also had to drop the light levels, as one of my
> fixtures ground-faulted
> >> >(bye-bye!)
> >> >So now I'm running two 92 watt CF 36" bulbs, on
> estimated 78 gallons
> >> >actual (at a guess, as it's both deep and a
> corner-diamond shape, and I
> >> >didn't measure on first fill, dummy me--90 gallons
> nominal) so that puts
> >> >
> >> >it in that awkward 2 watts per gallon range,  I find
> the high-light
> >> >plants don't like it.
> >> >I'm debating about how to punch more light down into
> the 24" depth with
> >> >some sort of fixture in less than 24" width.
> >> >
> >> >As always, thanks for everybody's help!!
> >> >Heather
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>If the nitrates are high but the phosphates are
> remaining
> >> >>at about 1 ppm, continue dosing the phosphates but
> let lay
> >> >>off on the nitrates until the level gets down closer
> to
> >> >>about 10 ppm. Each 50% water change should cut the
> nitrate
> >> >>level in half. It might then build or decline
> between water
> >> >>changes depending on feeding and dosing.
> >> >>
> >> >>Some have said bga occurs due to nitrate limitation.
> I've
> >> >>seen it when the nitrates are very high. This could
> be due
> >> >>to a combination of related factors, such as not
> enough
> >> >>other nutrients for the plants to be able to use up
> the
> >> >>nitrates.
> >> >>
> >> >>Anyhow, try to aim for the targets and see if things
> don't
> >> >>clear up that way. OF course, physcally remove what
> bga or
> >> >>algae you can before a water change is always a big
> help.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>good luck, good fun,
> >> >>sh
> >> >>
> >> >>* * * * * * * * * * *
> >> >>Coming Soon in November, the winners and all the
> other beautiful
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >entries in the 6th Annual International Aquascaping
> Contest. Every
> >> >continent is represented -- except Antarctica. Maybe
> next year
> >> >Antarctica, too ;-)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org
> >> >>_______________________________________________
> >> >>AGA-Member mailing list
> >> >>AGA-Member@thekrib.com
> >> >>http://lists.thekrib.com/mailman/listinfo/aga-member
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >AGA-Member mailing list
> >> >AGA-Member@thekrib.com
> >> >http://lists.thekrib.com/mailman/listinfo/aga-member
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >AGA-Member mailing list
> >> >AGA-Member@thekrib.com
> >> >http://lists.thekrib.com/mailman/listinfo/aga-member
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ------------------------------
> >> 
> >> Message: 2
> >> Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 19:58:29 -0700
> >> From: Heather J Gladney <hgladney@comcast.net>
> >> Subject: Re: [AGA-Member] Low-light tanks & CO2
> >> To: Aquatic Gardeners Association Member Chat
> <aga-member@thekrib.com>
> >> Message-ID: <433DFB55.8030703@comcast.net>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
> format=flowed
> >> 
> >> Don Smolev wrote:
> >> 
> >> >>From my experience keeping discus for many years (I
> don't anymore -they
> >> >just get too large for my 90 gallon tanks and look
> out of proportion to
> >> >my eye as well as wrecking havoc on the substrate 
> while they forage
> >> >when they become adults) you should change the water
> at least twice a
> >> >week- 40% or so each time. Vacuum the tank well when
> you do so. I don't
> >> >know how often or how much you feed your discus but
> they produce mulm at
> >> >a prodigious rate. I've never read a satisfactorty
> explanation of what
> >> >conditions contribute to an outbreak of the
> blue-green algae. I've only
> >> >had a few outbreaks of the putrid stuff (not really
> algae but a form of
> >> >cyanbacteria) all within a few months time. But once
> I started to keep
> >> >the tank as clean as possible with frequent water
> changes it never
> >> >recurred. Plus I also discovered a mention of a
> product in one of the
> >> >plant treatises that reccomended Seachem's
> Healthguard for treating
> >> >blue-green. The author states that it does not affect
> plants at all.
> >> >Healthguard is a product that is used to treat ponds
> to rid them of
> >> >certain bacteria.
> >> >
> >> That would make sense, when BGA is a bacteria that can
> photosynthesize.
> >> Thanks!  Lots of great suggestions!
> >> 
> >> > I bought it and tried it (about a capful to every 15
> >> >gallons). It dissapates after a day and you need to
> treat the tank about
> >> >3 or 4 days in a row and lo and behold the stuff
> dissappears. The tank
> >> >smells sweet again (which it should always do).
> Healthguard, I can
> >> >happily report, has no effect on plants negative or
> otherwise. The
> >> >author also stated that Healthguard  inhibits certain
> other algaes. I
> >> >have since been in the habit of adding a few capfuls
> to my tanks when I
> >> >do a water change. I can't tell you that it is the
> reason that I have no
> >> >algae problems of any kind (I do have the usual algae
> eaters) but I
> >> >suspect that it at least contributes. I know that
> many purists will
> >> >frown on the practise of adding chemicals to control
> algae but my tanks
> >> >have lush growth, my fish live long beyond their
> expected life spans and
> >> >my panda cats are breeding in one tank.
> >> >
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >From: aga-member-bounces@thekrib.com
> >> >[mailto:aga-member-bounces@thekrib.com] On Behalf Of
> Adam Michels
> >> >Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 7:15 PM
> >> >To: Aquatic Gardeners Association Member Chat
> >> >Subject: RE: [AGA-Member] Low-light tanks & CO2
> >> >
> >> >Heather, how does one get blue-green algae? Is it
> from too much light
> >> >and not enough CO2? or too many phosphates in the
> water (because we feed
> >> >our discus too much) and not enough plants that
> absorb nutrients
> >> >quickly?
> >> >	I've heard that bunched plants absorb nutrients
> faster than most
> >> >others. But it seems no one keeps bunched plants in
> low-light,
> >> >discus-style tanks; mostly Anubias, Java Ferns,
> Mosses, Grasses and
> >> >Swords. My planted discus tank seems to get dirty and
> overwhelmed with
> >> >dissolved organics quickly. Because of this I clean
> my canister more
> >> >often, every two weeks or so. I even considered doing
> it every
> >> >week...discus, ugh.
> >> >	Also, if your substrate is real deep, like more than
> 3 or 4
> >> >inches, I think adding more Sword plants might
> improve conditions. Their
> >> >roots spread out fast, and I bet they do a great job,
> comparatively, of
> >> >keeping the substrate free of anaerobic conditions.
> I'm speculating,
> >> >though, and really have no evidence of such.
> >> >	If you're serious about wanting to learn more about
> keeping
> >> >discus in planted tanks, I can offer a few tips I've
> learned from
> >> >painful experiences.
> >> >
> >> >1. Preferably, buy your discus all at once. That way
> you don't have to
> >> >worry about territorial issues, which can prove
> disastrous. After
> >> >quarantining your new discus, you put it with the
> others. They have a
> >> >pecking order. Either the new one get picked on until
> it turns black,
> >> >hides, gets sick and infects the rest of your fish
> potentially, or it
> >> >fights with the others until one of them gets sick.
> Juveniles are
> >> >considerably less hardy than the adults and even
> sub-adults.
> >> >2.  Keeping discus in a planted tank poses some
> problems: their
> >> >temperature requirements and the FACT that they are
> very temperamental
> >> >and can easily contract diseases from other organisms
> in the aquarium.
> >> >In a bare-bottom tank you can boost your temperature
> to 90+ degrees F or
> >> >drop your pH under 5 to kill off most diseases, but
> you can't do either
> >> >in a plant tank. No one wants to ever medicate their
> planted tank, but
> >> >discus have the potential for getting sick any and
> every time you add
> >> >anything new to the tank: new fish, new plants, etc.
> Depends on the
> >> >discus, some are curious, while others are fearful.
> >> >3.  I hate to say it, but you may have to medicate
> your planted tank.
> >> >With discus, it's hard to avoid. Discus carry so many
> latent diseases:
> >> >internal worms (tapeworms and Hexamita), gill flukes
> and bacterial
> >> >infections are the three I feel I'm at constant war
> with. I will only
> >> >treat my planted tank with PraziPro for flukes and
> tapeworms or Kordon's
> >> >RidIck for an occasional white spot. Medicating for
> internal worms or
> >> >bacterial infections definitely requires a hospital
> tank, because of the
> >> >damage the medications can do to the biological
> filter or the high
> >> >temperatures required to help the medicines work.
> Plants don't like salt
> >> >either. To fight Hexamita, Epsom salt makes the fish
> drink more water,
> >> >and the idea is that they will drink up some of the
> metronidazole
> >> >medication, which doesn't dissolve in water very
> well, if the discus are
> >> >refusing food.
> >> >4.  Some of your discus will eventually refuse to
> eat. In the wild they
> >> >can go for quite some time without food. You will
> learn this and wait
> >> >for them to start eating again. Then you notice the
> white, diaphanous
> >> >feces trailing from them. Internal worms. Luckily you
> can remove the
> >> >single fish and treat in a hospital tank. They all
> probably have some
> >> >internal worms, but any minor changes, however
> slight, can cause the
> >> >worms to overpopulate and affect one discus more than
> another.
> >> >5. Bacterial infections are the scariest, for me,
> because I once watched
> >> >five of my ten discus rot away to nothing over a
> period of two months
> >> >(it takes a long time for them to die) and seemingly
> could do nothing to
> >> >stop it. Frequent water changes are the best way to
> prevent bacterial
> >> >infections from taking hold, but if you have to treat
> using
> >> >tetracycline, nitrofurazone or erythromycin, use a
> hospital tank. Note:
> >> >this disease is contagious, and all your discus have
> the potential of
> >> >developing a bad bacterial infection, especially once
> one of them gets
> >> >it bad.
> >> >6. If you keep them clean, fat and happy, some of
> your discus should
> >> >eventually start pairing up. You'll get some runts
> too. Wait until a
> >> >pair lays eggs and you see them hatch (or at least
> develop) before you
> >> >move them to a bare 30-gallon tank for breeding. Some
> discus can be
> >> >sterile (very few); more likely, if they're laying
> eggs but the eggs
> >> >aren't developing, you have two females. Breeding
> discus takes a lot of
> >> >leg work, but you'll never see anything else like it.
> >> >
> >> >Sorry about writing so much; there's so much to say,
> and I only got to
> >> >touch on the potential of discus getting sick in a
> planted tank before I
> >> >became apprehensive about the length of this e-mail.
> >> >
> >> >Adam
> >> >
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >From: aga-member-bounces@thekrib.com
> >> >[mailto:aga-member-bounces@thekrib.com] On Behalf Of
> Heather J Gladney
> >> >Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 6:34 PM
> >> >To: Aquatic Gardeners Association Member Chat
> >> >Subject: Re: [AGA-Member] Low-light tanks & CO2
> >> >
> >> >Adam Michels wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>Medium light? That's good too. I'm sure the swords
> and some of the
> >> >>Aponogetons appreciate the stronger light (not the
> laces). As for the
> >> >>Aponogetons liking cooler water, I've had the two
> Madagascar Lace
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >Plants
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>for more than eight months, even through what I
> figured was a dormant
> >> >>period. They're in the background, behind one of the
> bogwood stumps and
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>get less light. Now they send out shoots every few
> days. I heard the
> >> >>Lace plants like cool temps like you've said, but
> the A. crispus and A.
> >> >>boivinarius (spelling?) are not supposed to mind the
> higher temps,
> >> >>right?. And they're big; taller than my 75-gallon.
> One of my smaller
> >> >>Aponogetons has produced six flowers consecutively.
> >> >>	As for the discus, I don't know why people keep
> them in
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >bare-bottom
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>species tanks, other than for breeding, because they
> look absolutely
> >> >>beautiful in planted tanks, and the larger ones
> don't seem
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >as
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>sensitive as the juveniles (and they don't get sick
> as much!).
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >I'd like to hear more about how to keep them, too. 
> Currently got BGA in
> >> >
> >> >my tank (bleahh!) and yet fairly high N going, so I
> suspect that I let
> >> >my tank's TDS get too high, not enough water changes,
> for discus.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>	I guess there aren't any major problems with my
> tank, but my C02
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>levels are pretty low. Maybe when such plants are
> grown in less strong
> >> >>lighting, compared with my 4WPG tank where I keep
> all my bunch plants
> >> >>and glosso, they don't need as much CO2. Plus, of
> course, the discus
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >eat
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>a lot of frozen foods, and the additional build up
> of dissolved
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >organics
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>may help my CO2 levels. However, I do 33% water
> changes at least 2-3
> >> >>times a week.
> >> >>	For a couple days no members were chatting, so I
> thought I'd
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >bring up
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>a subject I've had trouble finding information
> about. And I regard
> >> >>highly all of your experience and expertise and
> figured you
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >could
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>offer some tips to optimize light levels, temp, CO2
> and water chemistry
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>in what I consider my low-light tank.
> >> >>	I still have one question regarding DIY CO2 yeast
> reactors: more
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >yeast
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>= more CO2?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >Nope.  They reproduce so rapidly they fill to
> capacity, as I understand
> >> >it, within a few hours.  Also, they can only ferment
> so long before they
> >> >
> >> >poison themselves to death with their own wastes;
> there's discussion
> >> >whether the wine yeasts make much difference, being
> resistant to higher
> >> >alcohol content--can't help you on that one, I only
> used baker's yeast.
> >> >  There was a rather nice article on it some months
> back in the AGA
> >> >magazine which mentioned using protein powder to
> supply traces and using
> >> >
> >> >baking soda to counter the increased acidity, so your
> final (and
> >> >unavoidable) limit was that alcohol content.  Also,
> don't bother raising
> >> >
> >> >the sugar content way high, about 1 cup in a 2-liter
> bottle or so as
> >> >best I recall--the yeast can't survive the alcohol it
> would produce in
> >> >any more.  I *did* find both the protein and soda
> very helpful tips to
> >> >extend useful bottle life.
> >> >I found it extremely helpful to run a whole gang of
> bottles into
> >> >auirline check valves, then into several reasonably
> good airline gang
> >> >valves (not great) and fron there to single
> airstones, or up to those
> >> >CO2 yeast ladders (your yeast bubble counters!).  I
> used to swap out a
> >> >quarter - third of the bottles every week, to keep a
> more stable level
> >> >of CO2 going, because it does ramp up and down
> (mostly down!).  I used
> >> >the big 3-liter bottles, I think I had about 15 to 19
> of them (varied,
> >> >depending on what cap was leaking that week or
> not...) going for a
> >> >nominally 90 gallon tank.  For a 3 liter pop bottle,
> I used about 1 1/2
> >> >cups of sugar.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>Thank you,
> >> >>Adam
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >AGA-Member mailing list
> >> >AGA-Member@thekrib.com
> >> >http://lists.thekrib.com/mailman/listinfo/aga-member
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >AGA-Member mailing list
> >> >AGA-Member@thekrib.com
> >> >http://lists.thekrib.com/mailman/listinfo/aga-member
> >> >
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >AGA-Member mailing list
> >> >AGA-Member@thekrib.com
> >> >http://lists.thekrib.com/mailman/listinfo/aga-member
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ------------------------------
> >> 
> >> Message: 3
> >> Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 20:14:07 -0700
> >> From: Heather J Gladney <hgladney@comcast.net>
> >> Subject: Re: [AGA-Member] Low-light tanks & CO2
> >> To: Aquatic Gardeners Association Member Chat
> <aga-member@thekrib.com>
> >> Message-ID: <433DFEFF.8040804@comcast.net>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
> format=flowed
> >> 
> >> S. Hieber wrote:
> >> 
> >> >It sounds like your nitrates are high but don't error
> on
> >> >the other side of caution and get them too low.
> >> >
> >> >I would try to keep the nitrates around about 10 ppm
> and
> >> >the phosphate around 1 -2 ppm. For potassium, I'd aim
> for
> >> >about 10 but if the potassium is high, it doesn't
> seem to
> >> >present problems. If you dose with potassium
> phosphate and
> >> >potatssium nitrate, you probably have enough
> potassium.
> >> >
> >> >You can add plants (see previous note on floating
> water
> >> >sprite)
> >> >
> >> Yes, water sprite sounds like a good idea.  I remember
> someone on list
> >> mentioned an idicator plant they liked to show
> iron/traces were low,
> >> can't remember now what it was.  (Don't think that's
> the problem in this
> >> tank, unles my test kit is wonky.)
> >>  Sometimes stem plants will just take off, get huge &
> happy, and then
> >> fall apart.  There for awhile Shinnersia was going
> nuts, and Bacopa
> >> before that, and then they start to deteriorate.  They
> don't like trying
> >> to grow back from foot-long cuttings from the bottom. 
> I do have a
> >> surface hog--forgot to mention the happy red-leaf
> water lily.  Didn't
> >> think that was the problem, as I got the same results
> in winter (when
> >> red tiger was dormant) vs. now, when it's trying to
> hog the entire water
> >> surface (and could be shading things out) and I whack
> off 6-7 floating
> >> leaves every water change.  For awhile, I dosed fairly
> strongly with
> >> majors and traces, thinking that it might be chewing
> up too *much* of
> >> the nutrients, and with those test numbers, then I was
> hoping that would
> >> soak up some nutrients--maybe it *is*!
> >> I had talked to someone quite awhile ago about using
> vallisneria in back
> >> areas as another nutrient sponge.  Simply have not
> been out in search of
> >> new plants since then!
> >> 
> >> > to help suck up excess nutrients. Or do more or
> >> >larger water changes to hold down the nitrate levels.
> >> >
> >> >In trying to push down your nitrates, you might
> depress
> >> >your phosphates also, so keep an eye on the phosphate
> >> >levels and dose if you need.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> Will do--thanks!
> >> 
> >> >As for light and depth. there are only two ways to
> easily
> >> >get more light to the bottom, add more lights or
> narrow the
> >> >angle of the reflectors. The latter has only limited
> >> >utility because, you can only go so far and
> fluorescents
> >> >tend to scatter light a lot anyway.
> >> >
> >> >Don't worry about whether you are figuring 2 wpg
> based on
> >> >nominal or actual water volume. 2wpg for a medium
> level of
> >> >light is just a rule of thumb not a precise recipe.
> There
> >> >is no precise recipe since each tank can be set up
> and
> >> >behave a bit diff than another -- what plants you
> have,
> >> >which might be shading which, nutrient levels, CO2
> etc. can all impact the 
> >> overall activity of your plants. Wpg rulesare just a
> guide but now that you 
> >> have your tank set up you
> >> >can watch how the plants that you grow in that tank
> behave
> >> >and adjust accordingly, either with more lights or
> >> >adjusting the lighting period for some or all of the
> >> >lights.
> >> >
> >> >sh
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ------------------------------
> >> 
> >> Message: 4
> >> Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 20:15:45 -0700
> >> From: Heather J Gladney <hgladney@comcast.net>
> >> Subject: Re: [AGA-Member] Low-light tanks & CO2
> >> To: Aquatic Gardeners Association Member Chat
> <aga-member@thekrib.com>
> >> Message-ID: <433DFF61.3030902@comcast.net>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
> format=flowed
> >> 
> >> S. Hieber wrote:
> >> 
> >> >One thing you can do for an aquarium where you don't
> want
> >> >to have a lot of light but you do a lot of fish
> feeding is
> >> >add some watersprite (Ceratopteris cornuta) as a
> floating
> >> >plant.
> >> >
> >> I love the way this plant looks, too.  Nice contrast
> with everything else.
> >> 
> >> > Because it is floating it will be up close to the
> >> >lights, taking maximum advantage of them while
> providing
> >> >some shade for the water column below. Plus, because
> it is
> >> >at the surface, ity can get plenty of CO2. So it can
> behave
> >> >like fast growing plants, soaking up a lot of
> nutrients
> >> >fromthe water column even in a relatvely low-light
> >> >aquarium.
> >> >
> >> >As a bonus, trimming is very easy, so you can control
> the
> >> >amount with barely any effort at all. You can tear,
> divide,
> >> >snip pretty much any way you want and the plant just
> keeps
> >> >growing back and it seems to accept a pretty wide
> range of
> >> >water conditions and temps.
> >> >
> >> >For the sake of swords, you might want to avoid
> shading
> >> >them, but the ferns and anubias won't mind the shade.
> >> >
> >> >have plants, have solutions,
> >> >
> >> >
> >> Always!!  And as always, thanks.
> >> Heather
> >> 
> >> >sh
> >> >
> >> >--- Adam Michels <amichels@trafficleader.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>. . .
> >> >>	I've heard that bunched plants absorb nutrients
> >> >>faster
> >> >>than most
> >> >>others. But it seems no one keeps bunched plants in
> >> >>low-light,
> >> >>discus-style tanks; mostly Anubias, Java Ferns,
> Mosses,
> >> >>Grasses and
> >> >>Swords. My planted discus tank seems to get dirty
> and
> >> >>overwhelmed with
> >> >>dissolved organics quickly. Because of this I clean
> my
> >> >>canister more
> >> >>often, every two weeks or so. I even considered
> doing it
> >> >>every
> >> >>week...discus, ugh.
> >> >>	Also, if your substrate is real deep, like more
> than 3
> >> >>or 4
> >> >>inches, I think adding more Sword plants might
> improve
> >> >>conditions. Their
> >> >>roots spread out fast, and I bet they do a great
> job,
> >> >>comparatively, of
> >> >>keeping the substrate free of anaerobic conditions.
> I'm
> >> >>speculating,
> >> >>though, and really have no evidence of such.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >* * * * * * * * * * *
> >> >Coming Soon in November, the winners and all the
> other beautiful entries in 
> >> the 6th Annual International Aquascaping Contest.
> Every continent is 
> >> represented -- except Antarctica. Maybe next year
> Antarctica, too ;-)
> >> >
> >> >http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >AGA-Member mailing list
> >> >AGA-Member@thekrib.com
> >> >http://lists.thekrib.com/mailman/listinfo/aga-member
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ------------------------------
> >> 
> >> Message: 5
> >> Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 06:43:02 -0700 (PDT)
> >> From: "S. Hieber" <shieber@yahoo.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [AGA-Member] Low-light tanks & CO2
> >> To: Aquatic Gardeners Association Member Chat
> <aga-member@thekrib.com>
> >> Message-ID:
> <20051001134302.8572.qmail@web51706.mail.yahoo.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >> 
> >> It seems that light reflectds back into the tank off
> of the
> >> glas under water. so height doesn't seem to matter as
> much
> >> in an aquarium as with a terresterial garden.
> >> 
> >> Next time you do a large water change, check out how
> much
> >> light escapes the tank when the wter is low vs when
> the
> >> tank is full of water.
> >> 
> >> Also, if you're using tube, like fluorescent lighting,
> >> distance has less effect than when using a point
> source.
> >> 
> >> sh
> >> 
> >> --- Heather J Gladney <hgladney@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> 
> >> > Thankyou--that's good to know!  I was fretting a bit
> >> > about spending
> >> > money on lights.  Not just now, when things are
> tight for
> >> > everybody!
> >> >
> >> > Adam Michels wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >Heather, I've heard from an experienced source that
> as
> >> > long as you have
> >> > >strong lighting to begin with, like you do (I run
> two
> >> > 96W 6700K PCs on
> >> > >my 55G and they're strong!), a 24" depth shouldn't
> be
> >> > any different than
> >> > >an 18" depth. I know a lot of people say otherwise,
> but
> >> > the source
> >> > >assured me that depth only becomes an issue when it
> much
> >> > deeper; he
> >> > >exaggerated and said "30 feet."
> >> > >	Because my lights are 36" and my tank is 48" I
> place
> >> > plants like
> >> > >Hygrophila, Bacopa caroliniana, Rotala repens,
> Mayaca,
> >> > Anubias,
> >> > >Aponogetons, Sagittaria etc. in areas like the
> corners
> >> > where the light
> >> > >is less intense. I place my light-demanding plants
> >> > directly under the
> >> > >lighting, where it is most intense. You probably
> don't
> >> > need more
> >> > >lighting, unless you want it. It's like with reef
> tanks;
> >> > you can get
> >> > >away with keeping more light-demanding corals by
> keeping
> >> > them closer to
> >> > >the lights. The bunch plants will grow upward and
> then
> >> > the 24" depth
> >> > >will be more like 6" to their tips. Plant the
> >> > shade-loving or
> >> > >less-demanding plants in the corners. I know making
> the
> >> > tank look well
> >> > >designed is important but making the plants strong
> and
> >> > healthy comes
> >> > >first, right? My tank could definitely use a
> woman's
> >> > touch; what a
> >> > >jungle!
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >Adam
> >> > >
> >> > >-----Original Message-----
> >> > >From: aga-member-bounces@thekrib.com
> >> > >[mailto:aga-member-bounces@thekrib.com] On Behalf
> Of
> >> > Heather J Gladney
> >> > >Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 7:10 PM
> >> > >To: Aquatic Gardeners Association Member Chat
> >> > >Subject: Re: [AGA-Member] Low-light tanks & CO2
> >> > >
> >> > >S. Hieber wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >>--- Heather J Gladney <hgladney@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>>>I'd like to hear more about how to keep them,
> too.
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>Currently got BGA in
> >> > >>>my tank (bleahh!) and yet fairly high N going, so
> I
> >> > >>>suspect that I let
> >> > >>>my tank's TDS get too high, not enough water
> changes,
> >> > for
> >> > >>>discus.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>How high is high? Also, what are the phoshpate
> levels?
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >At the risk of hijacking the thread here--file it
> in a
> >> > new category?
> >> > >I've been meaning to ask about this for awhile
> >> > anyway...with your
> >> > >indulgence, please...
> >> > >I think this one's called, "not enough water
> changes",
> >> > in spite of the
> >> > >fact there's folks out there who insist you don't
> have
> >> > to.
> >> > >Last testing batch I did:
> >> > > pH 6.7 (down from 7.0 over a month, using solenoid
> on
> >> > pressurized CO2
> >> > >system.)
> >> > >KH 5 (up from 3 over the month)
> >> > >GH 13- 16 (down from 15-18--I think this was Mg, it
> shot
> >> > way up when I
> >> > >added Epsom + Seachem Equilibrium.)
> >> > >nitrate about .3 mg/l steadily,
> >> > >nitrate about 50-60 mg/l (this is down from prior
> 100
> >> > mg/l--when I added
> >> > >
> >> > >no ferts, it ran about 12 mg/l routinely).
> >> > >phosphate 1.5 - 2.0 mg/l, probably closer to 2 (up
> from
> >> > prior .5 - .67
> >> > >mg/l)
> >> > >iron test showed over 1 mg/l, more like 2 mg/l,
> which I
> >> > understand is
> >> > >high.
> >> > >I found tap was running GH 4-5, generally around pH
> 7.0
> >> > -7.2.
> >> > >Before this test, as I saw the BGA, I had been
> adding
> >> > some extra
> >> > >nitrates +  traces, and stopped when I got these
> >> > results.
> >> > >In the last month, at water changes I just added
> some
> >> > dolomitic lime to
> >> > >tapwater to maintain CO2/hardness, and stopped
> adding
> >> > anything in the
> >> > >last couple of weeks.
> >> > >Also had to drop the light levels, as one of my
> fixtures
> >> > ground-faulted
> >> > >(bye-bye!)
> >> > >So now I'm running two 92 watt CF 36" bulbs, on
> >> > estimated 78 gallons
> >> > >actual (at a guess, as it's both deep and a
> >> > corner-diamond shape, and I
> >> > >didn't measure on first fill, dummy me--90 gallons
> >> > nominal) so that puts
> >> > >
> >> > >it in that awkward 2 watts per gallon range,  I
> find the
> >> > high-light
> >> > >plants don't like it.
> >> > >I'm debating about how to punch more light down
> into the
> >> > 24" depth with
> >> > >some sort of fixture in less than 24" width.
> >> > >
> >> > >As always, thanks for everybody's help!!
> >> > >Heather
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >>If the nitrates are high but the phosphates are
> >> > remaining
> >> > >>at about 1 ppm, continue dosing the phosphates but
> let
> >> > lay
> >> > >>off on the nitrates until the level gets down
> closer to
> >> > >>about 10 ppm. Each 50% water change should cut the
> >> > nitrate
> >> > >>level in half. It might then build or decline
> between
> >> > water
> >> > >>changes depending on feeding and dosing.
> >> > >>
> >> > >>Some have said bga occurs due to nitrate
> limitation.
> >> > I've
> >> > >>seen it when the nitrates are very high. This
> could be
> >> > due
> >> > >>to a combination of related factors, such as not
> enough
> >> > >>other nutrients for the plants to be able to use
> up the
> >> > >>nitrates.
> >> > >>
> >> > >>Anyhow, try to aim for the targets and see if
> things
> >> > don't
> >> > >>clear up that way. OF course, physcally remove
> what bga
> >> > or
> >> > >>algae you can before a water change is always a
> big
> >> > help.
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>good luck, good fun,
> >> > >>sh
> >> > >>
> >> > >>* * * * * * * * * * *
> >> > >>Coming Soon in November, the winners and all the
> other
> >> > beautiful
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >entries in the 6th Annual International Aquascaping
> >> > Contest. Every
> >> > >continent is represented -- except Antarctica.
> Maybe
> >> > next year
> >> > >Antarctica, too ;-)
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >>http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org
> >> > >>_______________________________________________
> >> > >>AGA-Member mailing list
> >> > >>AGA-Member@thekrib.com
> >> >
> >>http://lists.thekrib.com/mailman/listinfo/aga-member
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> > >_______________________________________________
> >> > >AGA-Member mailing list
> >> > >AGA-Member@thekrib.com
> >> >
> >http://lists.thekrib.com/mailman/listinfo/aga-member
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >_______________________________________________
> >> > >AGA-Member mailing list
> >> > >AGA-Member@thekrib.com
> >> >
> >http://lists.thekrib.com/mailman/listinfo/aga-member
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > AGA-Member mailing list
> >> > AGA-Member@thekrib.com
> >> > http://lists.thekrib.com/mailman/listinfo/aga-member
> >> >
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ------------------------------
> >> 
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> >> 
> >> 
> >> End of AGA-Member Digest, Vol 16, Issue 1
> >> *****************************************
> >
> >
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