Hello Vern I recently was in a really good quality shop that regularly carries apistos and westies. They had a tank marked as Ortmanni and were really Steindachneri, which is what I really wanted anyways. If the males have round tales and one spot they might be ortmanni, but remember steindachneri have the lyre tail. Even in 1.5 inch males you should be able to see this. Hope you find some real steals. Imagine coming across Elizabethae as a contaminet. John ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!