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Re: A. hongsloi (Alto Carinagua)
Steven,
I will admit that I have never seen a "traditional" wild caught Rotstrich in the
flesh. And I do accept that there are more colorful forms (populations) of A.
hongsloi out there than Tim's Alto Carinagua form. But your statement that "it is
not the same animal" puzzles me. Do you mean "not the same population" or "not the
same species"? I will accept the former, but not the latter.
A. hongsloi is recognized as a polychromatic species (Koslowski, 1985; Zenner,
1989; Staeck, 1991). In particular the amount of red on the fish is known to be
highly variable even within individual populations. Presently the form known as A.
hongsloi (Rotstrich) is a highly developed - and beautiful - domestic strain, bred
over the past quarter century using fish from several populations to enhance the
amount of red on the fish. The original Rotstrich in the hobby were introduced by
Staeck (1976) using fish collected in Colombia. We don't know where his fish came
from, but it was obviously more colorful, at least in the red parts, than the Alto
Carinagua form. And based on Kullander's (1979) original description, both the
original Rotstrich and Alto Carinagua forms are more colorful than the (2) type
populations. In the original description Kullander's writes, "Hongslo noted the
coloration of the NRM 11236 lot when freshly killed: "Ground-colour light
grey-green. Stripes on belly and cross-bars on flanks grey-green. Lateral band
dark grey-green"." (The fish were probably collected with Rotenone.) There is no
mention of any red caudal patch or anal fin base stripe. I would expect that at
least some red would be visible - and noticeable - on freshly killed fish if it
was as extensive as on Staeck's Rotstrich. It's visible on freshly dead domestic
Rotstrich as an dark red color. Staeck's Rotstrich were also deeper bodied, so I
doubt that they came from Hongslo's type populations. Actually the Alto Carinagua
form seems to be intermediate between the type forms and Staeck's original
Rotstrich form. Regardless, body coloration is not necessary for apisto species ID
(Haven't I heard this somewhere before??). In this respect, the Alto Carinagua
form actually conforms more closely to the type forms than do Staeck's Rotstrich!
As I said in an earlier message, the problem seems to be the 2 hobbyists' concepts
of "A. hongsloi" and "Rotstrich". One can consider "Rotstrich" to mean all forms
of A. hongsloi, but this is wrong. Someone else may consider "A. hongsloi" to mean
Rotstrich exclusively, yet this is wrong, too. Rotstrich is merely a colorful
population of A. hongsloi. If you want a highly colorful form of A. hongsloi, ask
for Rotstrich - and make sure both sides understand what "Rotstrich" means. If you
are more interested in getting a unique population, search out the species with a
known collecting locality.
I will stick with my ID, the Alto Carinagua form is A. hongsloi, but not
Rotstrich.
Mike Wise
swaldron@slip.net wrote:
> I respect your opinon Mike but have you ever seen a "traditional" wild
> caught "Rotstrich" hongsloi? In the flesh, not just from photographs or
> written descriptions? I have on two occasions (rare import: this out of a
> 14 year career lurking wholesaler's tanks) and it is not the same animal.
>
> >I was recently sent some fish to verify an ID.
> >This was a fish that someone on the list claimed
> >was a hybrid. I was asked to forward the reply to
> >the Apisto Mailing List:
> >
> >> Tim,
> >>
> >> I was surprised when I received the pair of fish
> >you sent me. I was expecting to
> >> see something like Werner's A. cf. hongsloi
> >(Maripa) [Römer Atlas p. 483] or
> >> Staeck's A. cf. hongsloi (Cataniapo) [Linke &
> >Staeck p.70], especially since the
> >> Rio Cataniapo is just east of Puerto Ayacucho on
> >the Venezuelan side of the
> >> Orinoco. Instead if find a fish that looks more
> >like the traditional Rotstrich
> >> Apisto. After looking at your A. hongsloi in
> >various moods I can't see anything to
> >> make me think they are anything but wild caught
> >A. hongsloi. The body depth is the
> >> same as that described in the holotype. The
> >lateral band shows the same open
> >> lattice form of the type material. The other
> >dark markings seem to conform fairly
> >> closely, too. The colors, although not as
> >intense as domestic bred fish, are the
> >> same as those of Rotstrich - yellowish head &
> >breast and pale blue flanks. The red
> >> caudal patch & the streak along the insertion of
> >the anal fin (not described on
> >> the type material, by the way) are there, too,
> >just not as large, continuous, or
> >> extensive as on domestic bred Rotstrich.
> >Although not as spectacular as the
> >> domestic Rotstrich forms, your fish are
> >definitely more colorful than some other
> >> forms I have pictures of. Considering where they
> >were collected, I wouldn't be
> >> surprised if this form was part of the initial
> >wild stock used to develop the
> >> domestic Rotstrich strain. I know that if I
> >wanted to add some "wild blood" into
> >> my Rotstrich strain, I would not be afraid to
> >use your form. I do, however, hope
> >> you will try to keep this population pure. I
> >hope this puts your mind at ease
> >> about what you have. If you have any other
> >questions please let me know.
> >>
> >> best wishes,
> >>
> >> Mike Wise
> >
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> Steven J. Waldron
>
> http://WWW.ANURA.ORG
> "Natural History, Captive Husbandry, Conservation and
> Biophilia of Tropical Frogs"
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>
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