Re: A. hongsloi (Alto Carinagua)

[Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise@bewellnet.com>]

swaldron@slip.net wrote:

> Hi Mike,
> Thanks for your thoughts. I know it is a hongsloi and I know that is a
> polymorphic species. Despite Helen's misinterpretation of my words, I was
> not attacking your expertise, just questioning what you had meant by:
>
> >Considering where they
> >were collected, I wouldn't be
> >> surprised  if this form was part of the initial
> >wild stock used to develop the
> >> domestic Rotstrich strain.

Koslowski (1985, p. 95) wrote in his book, "In the past the frequent crossing of
A. hongsloi with the other species of the macmasteri-group led to the loss of the
blue [Rotstrich - mw] form  in the hobby.". We don't know how many populations of
A. hongsloi were used to develop the Rotstrich form in the 1980s, but it probably
wasn't exactly the same fish that Staeck introduced in 1976.

> I know that if I
> >wanted to add some "wild blood" into
> >> my Rotstrich strain, I would not be afraid to
> >use your form.
>
> Presently, the "rotstrich" might be the result of years of domestic
> selection but the fish I was referring to is depicted on pg. 69 of the
> englsih version of Linke and Staeck(and thought was receiving from Tim) is
> what we used to call "rotstrich" and is naturally occurring variant - that
> is where I became confused by the previous statement.

All I meant - and this was basically for Tim, not other apisto list members - was
that since the Alto Carinagua form has the same blue/yellow coloration of the
domestic Rotstrich that I felt that this fish could be crossed with line bred
Rotstrich if someone wanted a different blood line in their strain without
radically changing the strain. It would be the preferred population presently
available from the wild since the wild Rotstrich isn't coming in. Many of the
other forms now available are more yellow and brown in color. Personally, I feel
that inbred strains like Rotstrich do not need outcrossing if proper selection of
breeders is utilized, but others think differently.  I don't know if the
mentioned Staeck photo is of a wild form or a domestic form. I have never seen a
truly wildcaught Rotstrich form, but if you have I'll accept that they exist.

> Actually the Alto Carinagua
> >form seems to be intermediate between the type forms and Staeck's original
> >Rotstrich form.
>
> This was my concern with Tim's fish- is this a natural intermediate or an
> inter-populational hybrid?

By definition, a hybrid is usually considered a cross between species. If you
want to consider cross breeding of populations of the same species as hybrids,
then most of the colorful aquarium strains of apistos are hybrids - including
Rotstrich (see Kullander's statement above). If you, or anyone else, is worried
about getting hybrids, then I certainly wouldn't buy what is now almost certainly
a domestic color strain.

> I can't say that I'm familiar with every
> naturally occurring hongsloi variant but i have seen my share of wild
> caught imports over the years and this form looked strange...

In what way? I have seen my share of photos & fish of different populations, too,
including one in Schaefer's book, "Erfolg mit Zwergcichliden" (p. 43 bottom),
that quite closely corresponds with the description of the type specimens. As
anyone who has this book can attest, it is far from being spectacular, with no
red on it at all. The other male A. hongsloi on the top of the page is more like
Tim's although it doesn't show the blue & yellow color much at all (poor
lighting?). They certainly don't look like Rotstrich, but in truth it is
Rotstrich that doesn't look like the typical A. hongsloi.


> thinking back
> to the situation- prior to getting the fish from tim I spoke with some guy
> working at a fish store in Texas who had supposedly captured the fish in
> the wild and had sold Tim his stock- he described the male looking like a
> "rotstrich (i.e. linke and staeck pg. 69) but the offspring were obviously
> coming up looking different from that form and that is where some
> suspicions arose.

Tim gave me the name of the collector of his fish, an expatriate American now
living in Puerto Ayacucho, Colombia. Is this the same person you are talking
about? Tim also provided me with the precise collecting locality (including a
map!) for his fish, based on what the collector gave him. This collector is
fairly well respected in the hobby, so I tend to believe him and his collecting
data.

The real Rotstrich (deep bodied, blue/yellow form) is now rarely if ever seen in
the hobby (Does anyone out there still have it?). None of the new books on
apistos have pictures of it except for the Rotstrich picture you mention in Linke
& Staeck. But this photo is over 15 years old, published in their 1984 1st
edition. Schmettkamp pictures this same form in his 1982 book & Koslowski has a
picture of  it in his 1985 book. Since then all photos of A. hongsloi are of
other populations or domestic strains, none with the deep body (bd ~50%) of the
true Rotstrich. None are listed as Rotstrich, either, except for A. sp.
"Red-stroke" in Southamerican Cichlids II (p.68). This is an incorrect ID.
Actually this looks a lot like the fish Tim sent me, but with a bit more red on
the body. Even the authors admit it is similar to A. hongsloi I. I wouldn't be
surprised at all to find out that it was collected around Puerto Ayacucho like
Tim's. There are some deeper bodied forms, but none are as deep as the original
Rotstrich. They are probably crosses between the deep body Rotstrich form and
some of the more typical A. hongsloi forms.

I hope this clarifies my statements for you.

Mike Wise

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