Hi Dave My thayeri spawned about a month ago without me knowing it (which was real dumb since they had spawning colors and were guarding). I found out about it when I was doing a gravel washing and siphoned out a couple hundred babies. I managed to save about 30. There was a discussion about punctulata on the Apisto list a couple months ago and although there is a fairly well documented case of this happening, the consensus was that no-one has been able to reproduce the results. I had a friend who claimed to have had this happen in his tanks but I never saw any fry come out of his house. So I guess I can't be of much help. I guess I've always been a skeptic and just figured there were males who did not show a male coloration when a dominant male was present. There were a number of people on the list who said they had a group of females with no males and they died females without any changing to male. One of the reasons I have them again is with that in mind, to see if a functional female will turn into a functional male, if I can ever get the damn things to spawn. I do have at least one male in my group of 6. Tom ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!