Re: [Fwd: BOUNCE apisto@admin.listbox.com: Message too long (over 8000 chars)]

[Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise@bewellnet.com>]

Frank O'Carroll wrote:

> this bounce because it was too long.  Try editing and resend
> thanks, frank
>
> Subject: BOUNCE apisto@admin.listbox.com:     Message too long (over 8000 chars)
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>
> Message-ID: <3AE6F403.C3433BA2@bewellnet.com>
> Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:57:55 -0600
> From: Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise@bewellnet.com>
> Reply-To: apistowise@bewellnet.com
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> To: apisto@listbox.com
> Subject: Re: Apistogramma Tiger Stripe
> References: <3AE498E7.12293428@bewellnet.com> <3AE61923.45CEF23A@videotron.ca>
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>
> I had no intention of "flaming" Gary, who I respect greatly. I shouldn't have
> assumed he did not do diligent research on this fish before publishing the name.
> For this I sincerely apologize. But with all due respect to Gary & Ingo, I will
> stick with my opinion - and it is just my opinion - that A. sp. Tiger-stripe is
> the same species as the fish I prefer to call A. sp. Masken. I am limited to the
> photos in Gary's article, but to me the dark markings appear identical to those of
> the fish that are called A. sp. Masken by Koslowski. I must admit that my mentor,
> Ingo Koslowski, splits fish into more forms than I would, however.
>
> As I've said before, the influx of new regani-group species from Peruvian
> exporters is driving me crazy. This species,
> however, is fairly distinctive when compared to other Peruvian species. Right now
> the only species that are similar are A. cf. sp. Masken (Juruá) from the upper Rio
> Juruá of western Brazil & A. sp. São Gabriel/Alto Negro from the Rio Negro of
> Brazil. It is true there is no "type" specimen for an undescribed species that we
> can use as a reference. Therefore we must use the next bestthing. That would be
> the original published photos or fish, if available. It may not be perfect, but in
> this imperfect world it's about as good as it gets.
>
> So right now Gary & I disagree on the placement of this fish. We both have our own
> opinion and, like everyone else, we are
> entitled to our opinion. With more information these opinions can change. I know
> mine have changed many times over the years. Who knows, maybe it will change here,
> too. I was happy to learn recently that DNA studies are finally getting started on
> apistos. Maybe in a few years (decades?) we will have enough data to understand
> which forms are true species and which are geographic populations of valid
> species.
>
> With regard to all the names & the list that will eventually be on the ASG web
> site, it won't be perfect. Even the list of scientifically described species has
> its problems (e.g. is either A. sp. Mamoré or A. cf. trifasciata Guaporé the same
> as A. maciliensis; is A. roraimae the same as A. gibbiceps?). This is no reason
> not to try. I feel that it will help more than hinder.
>
> With regard to names, I have my own opinion. The following is from the
> introduction to my species list:
>
> "Another problem has arisen with the increase in forms. This is the multiplicity
> of names given to a single form by several different suppliers. The following list
> was made to alleviate some of the confusion and help you recognize a species/form
> listed under a different name. The bold names are my preferred names for what I
> feel are valid forms. They are my personal
> preferences. They may not be the best known names for the fish in question. I
> chose my preferred names based on the name that most accurately describes the
> fish. Names with known collecting data take preference over names that describe
> the physical features of a species. In forms without collecting data, names
> describing special features are preferred over names dedicated to a collector or
> hobbyist."
>
> I personally don't care what language a name is in. I usually use the name under
> which a fish is originally listed, be it English (A. sp. Lyretail "Panduro"),
> German (A. sp. Erdfresser/Earth-eater), Japanese (A. sp. Malome), Spanish (A. sp.
> Carapintada/Painted-head) or any other language - if it works with the statement
> above. Since most new species are introduced to the hobby in German publications,
> most newly introduced fish have German names. I see no reason for each species to
> have its own special name in English, however. After all, we all know what A. sp.
> Rotpunkt is without calling it something like "A. sp. Zipper-band" or "A. sp.
> Caquetá". I have no problem with translating the name (A. sp. Red-spot instead of
> A. sp. Rotpunkt) however. I usually use the original name along with its English
> translation (e.g. A. sp. Smaragd/Emerald), but a completely different name creates
> problems (e.g. A. sp. Erdfresser in Germany; A. sp. Lyretail Purus in the US, & A.
> sp. Rondonia in Japan). BTW the Japanese translate the German names of most
> apistos into Japanese. The English speaking hobby should at least do the same.
> That's why I've never wanted to give a name to a species newly entering the
> English speaking hobby.
>
> Mike Wise
>
> Frauley Elson wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > Normally I?d send this sort of thing privately, as Mike should have to
> > me, before posting to the list. However, Mike questions my research on
> > the ?sp. tiger stripe? hobby name, and I question his.
> > Had he asked, I?d have told him I had a correspondence with Ingo
> > Koslowski about the fish, before I wrote the article last year. While
> > its affinities are interesting to discuss, it is certainly not sp
> > Masken.
> >
> > I'm aware of the photos Mike offers for his shot at IDing the fish. I've
> > seen quite a few of the actual fish as well. I think it's a little too
> > complicated to fit neatly on the synonyms list offered. This message
> > underscores a concern I have. I think the list project is a bit like
> > herding mice. How many pop names exist for each  undescribed fish, or
> > how many fish exist for each name? I have a likely candidate to be sp
> > "masken" in my basement. Its solid markings have no relation to those of
> > sp "tiger stripe". Then again, I wouldn?t guess at how many fish have
> > been exported as "masken", or which photo(s) Mike has looked at. With no
> > type specimens for reference, it strikes me as a lost cause.
> >
> > Those who got through the list Mike offered will have noted no other
> > untranslated English names. They will also have noted a glaring lack of
> > Japanese names. The American hobby seems in love with the obscurity of
> > using popular German names (the sp designations in hobby literature are
> > just that - temporary tags on undescribed animals used so hobbyists will
> > be able to I.D the fish they want - when the proper work is done, these
> > names will get flushed). The Japanese have no such problem - they give
> > the new Apistos their collectors find and importers receive Japanese sp
> > designations and get on with it. I believe English speakers can do the
> > same.
> >
> > -Gary Elson
> >
>
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