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Re: blue ram parenting behavior? P.S.



one last note the reason Breeders are crossing back to
wild fish is to get more genetic variations and to get
good parenting behviors. Again this is old news and a
visit to some of the better Angel fish and Discus
sites and clubs will reveal this. I have been involved
in some of these groups and much of their research is
applicable to us as well.

Dave


--- David Sanchez <barbax2@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Just a quick note to add to the ram breeding. I have
> to disagree about line breeding. Some strains of
> Angels will eat their eggs almost everytime while
> some
> do not under exactly the same conditions so I have
> to
> say my experiences in this regard have been very
> diffrent. Especialy when we talk Discus a quick
> visit
> to some of the Discus web sites will dispel the
> myth.
> I am not saying that egg eating is 100% a genetic
> trait. It is both nature and nurture both have a
> case
> here. as I have often said in the past water quality
> and environment have a bigger role in my opinion.
> but
> I beleive we just dont no for sure at this point. My
> opinion is that both play a role to some degree.
> 
>  However in my opinpion egg eating is not due just a
> strains origin
> 
> 99% is from water quality and poor environment. I am
> glad to see my theory on water quality and
> environment( Counductivity etc...) catching on and
> eliminating the myths with egg eating we have so
> often
> had here in the past. I think sometimes we make
> things
> harder then they are sometimes it makes us feel
> better
> when we breed a fish because we labor about how hard
> it was. Is it magic? no way. Rams are easy to breed,
> wild rams are a diffrent story slightly but if we
> apply the the same rules we can overcome it.
> 
> Feed heavily with top quality live foods
> 
> water quality pH 5.5 30 us/cm ) DH frequent water
> changes ( depending on your monitering of the water
> quality check you counductivity until you get a feel
> 
> environment floating plants and java moss for plenty
> of cover.
> 
> We have to be carefull when we tell people you have
> to
> do things a certain way there are many roads to Rome
> (
> 
> 
> I  bred rams in a 5 gallon tank! 
> Yes I have bred them at 78 f and they raised the
> young
> most of my pairs are in 10 gallons and they raise
> their young
> 
> 
> 
> themportant this is we understand the basic
> principals
> and then we can formulate our own system that works
> with the resources we have available.
> 
> No secrets,no magic anyone can do it and you can
> apply
> this to all Apistos. Truthfully dwarfs are rather
> easy
> to breed and breed inspite of what we do.
> 
> 
> One last note to the topic of inbreeding. I have to
> say that if wee look at the Discus and Angel fish
> people we find that they are all crossing wild fish
> back to line bred fish. Folks this is well
> documented
> by many many breeders and is the standard. Again am
> I
> saying line breeding is the cause of all eagg eating
> NO
> I have some highly in bred Albino Angels they do not
> eat eggs but then again I have selected and kept
> only
> the ones with good behaviors such as not eating
> their
> eggs. We as Apisto breeders should not overlook the
> effects of line breeding we must breed fish with
> good
> behaviors as well as good color to ignore this is
> why
> European breeders are so far ahead of some of us.
> 
> --- Mike Jacobs <mjacobs2@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> > Jason and everyone........the trouble, so to
> speak,
> > with rams is that they
> > need conditions to be perfect before they will
> raise
> > their young........I
> > mean perfect!  And perfect for one pair may not be
> > perfect for another
> > pair......part of the mystery of the
> ram.........But
> > I will tell you guys
> > that most people don't have the heat anywhere near
> > where they want/like
> > it.............84 - 85 degrees is what they
> prefer. 
> > I have had some spawn
> > successfully at 78-80 but you guys want to see the
> > parents raise
> > them........crank up the heat, put one pair in a
> 20
> > long (minimum 15 or you
> > will likely loose one of the parents), PLENTY of
> > places to hide (small clay
> > pots all over!!!!!!!) and have the patients of a
> > discus breeder.........they
> > will eat their young 900 times just like some
> discus
> > and then bingo.....all
> > is fine.......I have a pair of discus right now
> that
> > have laid and
> > eaten.....ohhhhhhhhhhh, maybe 25 spawns (they
> hatch
> > so I have viable
> > parents)...........I'm gonna beat them!
> > 
> > I know folks.....there are some of you that spawn
> > and raise rams in sewer
> > water at 70 degrees with 50%
> saltwater..........but
> > I want to see it.....;-)
> > 
> > In the past this parental mis-behavior has been
> > blamed on
> > inbreeding.............folks....they were the same
> > in 1965 with F0 (wild)
> > fish.....prettier then than what you see now
> because
> > you don't see real F)'s
> > very often but the same parental
> > problem!!!!!...........I get a kick out of
> > everyone blaming all of the problems of the
> tropical
> > industry on
> > "inbreeding"...........there are problems with
> > inbreeding but not with the
> > parenting of rams .................or
> > angels!...................I have been
> > called "nuts" before, so save your breath
> > folks!!!!!!!  Some times we think
> > just because the fish lay eggs that the conditions
> > must be ok or perfect or
> > anything you want to say...........not
> > true........the discus people deal
> > with this on a daily basis.........why are we so
> > reluctant to put the ram in
> > this category????????
> > 
> > A true F0.....WILD ram is a real site to
> > behold...................question
> > anyone who claims to have real F0 rams.......but
> if
> > you can be sure, buy all
> > you can get, you'll never see anything like
> > it!!!!!!!
> > 
> > Have a super day folks.....................back to
> > school tomorrow!!
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > Mike Jacobs
> > Center for Advanced Technologies
> > High School Math Instructor
> > St. Pete, Fl.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jason Sullivan" <jsull97@earthlink.net>
> > To: <apisto@listbox.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 10:01 PM
> > Subject: RE: blue ram parenting behavior?
> > 
> > 
> > > Another 2 cents...
> > >
> > > A common problem I have seen among my pairs is
> > that otherwise attentive,
> > two
> > > active spawners will raise the fry to 4 or 5
> days
> > then all the fry
> > disappear
> > > overnight.  This has been very frustrating
> because
> > I have some pairs among
> > > that same group that will grow the fry out
> > attentively and then spawn in
> > the
> 
=== message truncated ===


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