one last note the reason Breeders are crossing back to wild fish is to get more genetic variations and to get good parenting behviors. Again this is old news and a visit to some of the better Angel fish and Discus sites and clubs will reveal this. I have been involved in some of these groups and much of their research is applicable to us as well. Dave --- David Sanchez <barbax2@yahoo.com> wrote: > Just a quick note to add to the ram breeding. I have > to disagree about line breeding. Some strains of > Angels will eat their eggs almost everytime while > some > do not under exactly the same conditions so I have > to > say my experiences in this regard have been very > diffrent. Especialy when we talk Discus a quick > visit > to some of the Discus web sites will dispel the > myth. > I am not saying that egg eating is 100% a genetic > trait. It is both nature and nurture both have a > case > here. as I have often said in the past water quality > and environment have a bigger role in my opinion. > but > I beleive we just dont no for sure at this point. My > opinion is that both play a role to some degree. > > However in my opinpion egg eating is not due just a > strains origin > > 99% is from water quality and poor environment. I am > glad to see my theory on water quality and > environment( Counductivity etc...) catching on and > eliminating the myths with egg eating we have so > often > had here in the past. I think sometimes we make > things > harder then they are sometimes it makes us feel > better > when we breed a fish because we labor about how hard > it was. Is it magic? no way. Rams are easy to breed, > wild rams are a diffrent story slightly but if we > apply the the same rules we can overcome it. > > Feed heavily with top quality live foods > > water quality pH 5.5 30 us/cm ) DH frequent water > changes ( depending on your monitering of the water > quality check you counductivity until you get a feel > > environment floating plants and java moss for plenty > of cover. > > We have to be carefull when we tell people you have > to > do things a certain way there are many roads to Rome > ( > > > I bred rams in a 5 gallon tank! > Yes I have bred them at 78 f and they raised the > young > most of my pairs are in 10 gallons and they raise > their young > > > > themportant this is we understand the basic > principals > and then we can formulate our own system that works > with the resources we have available. > > No secrets,no magic anyone can do it and you can > apply > this to all Apistos. Truthfully dwarfs are rather > easy > to breed and breed inspite of what we do. > > > One last note to the topic of inbreeding. I have to > say that if wee look at the Discus and Angel fish > people we find that they are all crossing wild fish > back to line bred fish. Folks this is well > documented > by many many breeders and is the standard. Again am > I > saying line breeding is the cause of all eagg eating > NO > I have some highly in bred Albino Angels they do not > eat eggs but then again I have selected and kept > only > the ones with good behaviors such as not eating > their > eggs. We as Apisto breeders should not overlook the > effects of line breeding we must breed fish with > good > behaviors as well as good color to ignore this is > why > European breeders are so far ahead of some of us. > > --- Mike Jacobs <mjacobs2@tampabay.rr.com> wrote: > > Jason and everyone........the trouble, so to > speak, > > with rams is that they > > need conditions to be perfect before they will > raise > > their young........I > > mean perfect! And perfect for one pair may not be > > perfect for another > > pair......part of the mystery of the > ram.........But > > I will tell you guys > > that most people don't have the heat anywhere near > > where they want/like > > it.............84 - 85 degrees is what they > prefer. > > I have had some spawn > > successfully at 78-80 but you guys want to see the > > parents raise > > them........crank up the heat, put one pair in a > 20 > > long (minimum 15 or you > > will likely loose one of the parents), PLENTY of > > places to hide (small clay > > pots all over!!!!!!!) and have the patients of a > > discus breeder.........they > > will eat their young 900 times just like some > discus > > and then bingo.....all > > is fine.......I have a pair of discus right now > that > > have laid and > > eaten.....ohhhhhhhhhhh, maybe 25 spawns (they > hatch > > so I have viable > > parents)...........I'm gonna beat them! > > > > I know folks.....there are some of you that spawn > > and raise rams in sewer > > water at 70 degrees with 50% > saltwater..........but > > I want to see it.....;-) > > > > In the past this parental mis-behavior has been > > blamed on > > inbreeding.............folks....they were the same > > in 1965 with F0 (wild) > > fish.....prettier then than what you see now > because > > you don't see real F)'s > > very often but the same parental > > problem!!!!!...........I get a kick out of > > everyone blaming all of the problems of the > tropical > > industry on > > "inbreeding"...........there are problems with > > inbreeding but not with the > > parenting of rams .................or > > angels!...................I have been > > called "nuts" before, so save your breath > > folks!!!!!!! Some times we think > > just because the fish lay eggs that the conditions > > must be ok or perfect or > > anything you want to say...........not > > true........the discus people deal > > with this on a daily basis.........why are we so > > reluctant to put the ram in > > this category???????? > > > > A true F0.....WILD ram is a real site to > > behold...................question > > anyone who claims to have real F0 rams.......but > if > > you can be sure, buy all > > you can get, you'll never see anything like > > it!!!!!!! > > > > Have a super day folks.....................back to > > school tomorrow!! > > > > Mike > > > > Mike Jacobs > > Center for Advanced Technologies > > High School Math Instructor > > St. Pete, Fl. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jason Sullivan" <jsull97@earthlink.net> > > To: <apisto@listbox.com> > > Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 10:01 PM > > Subject: RE: blue ram parenting behavior? > > > > > > > Another 2 cents... > > > > > > A common problem I have seen among my pairs is > > that otherwise attentive, > > two > > > active spawners will raise the fry to 4 or 5 > days > > then all the fry > > disappear > > > overnight. This has been very frustrating > because > > I have some pairs among > > > that same group that will grow the fry out > > attentively and then spawn in > > the > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com.