Re: blue ram parenting behavior? P.S.

[David Sanchez <barbax2@yahoo.com>]

one last note the reason Breeders are crossing back to
wild fish is to get more genetic variations and to get
good parenting behviors. Again this is old news and a
visit to some of the better Angel fish and Discus
sites and clubs will reveal this. I have been involved
in some of these groups and much of their research is
applicable to us as well.

Dave


--- David Sanchez <barbax2@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Just a quick note to add to the ram breeding. I have
> to disagree about line breeding. Some strains of
> Angels will eat their eggs almost everytime while
> some
> do not under exactly the same conditions so I have
> to
> say my experiences in this regard have been very
> diffrent. Especialy when we talk Discus a quick
> visit
> to some of the Discus web sites will dispel the
> myth.
> I am not saying that egg eating is 100% a genetic
> trait. It is both nature and nurture both have a
> case
> here. as I have often said in the past water quality
> and environment have a bigger role in my opinion.
> but
> I beleive we just dont no for sure at this point. My
> opinion is that both play a role to some degree.
> 
>  However in my opinpion egg eating is not due just a
> strains origin
> 
> 99% is from water quality and poor environment. I am
> glad to see my theory on water quality and
> environment( Counductivity etc...) catching on and
> eliminating the myths with egg eating we have so
> often
> had here in the past. I think sometimes we make
> things
> harder then they are sometimes it makes us feel
> better
> when we breed a fish because we labor about how hard
> it was. Is it magic? no way. Rams are easy to breed,
> wild rams are a diffrent story slightly but if we
> apply the the same rules we can overcome it.
> 
> Feed heavily with top quality live foods
> 
> water quality pH 5.5 30 us/cm ) DH frequent water
> changes ( depending on your monitering of the water
> quality check you counductivity until you get a feel
> 
> environment floating plants and java moss for plenty
> of cover.
> 
> We have to be carefull when we tell people you have
> to
> do things a certain way there are many roads to Rome
> (
> 
> 
> I  bred rams in a 5 gallon tank! 
> Yes I have bred them at 78 f and they raised the
> young
> most of my pairs are in 10 gallons and they raise
> their young
> 
> 
> 
> themportant this is we understand the basic
> principals
> and then we can formulate our own system that works
> with the resources we have available.
> 
> No secrets,no magic anyone can do it and you can
> apply
> this to all Apistos. Truthfully dwarfs are rather
> easy
> to breed and breed inspite of what we do.
> 
> 
> One last note to the topic of inbreeding. I have to
> say that if wee look at the Discus and Angel fish
> people we find that they are all crossing wild fish
> back to line bred fish. Folks this is well
> documented
> by many many breeders and is the standard. Again am
> I
> saying line breeding is the cause of all eagg eating
> NO
> I have some highly in bred Albino Angels they do not
> eat eggs but then again I have selected and kept
> only
> the ones with good behaviors such as not eating
> their
> eggs. We as Apisto breeders should not overlook the
> effects of line breeding we must breed fish with
> good
> behaviors as well as good color to ignore this is
> why
> European breeders are so far ahead of some of us.
> 
> --- Mike Jacobs <mjacobs2@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> > Jason and everyone........the trouble, so to
> speak,
> > with rams is that they
> > need conditions to be perfect before they will
> raise
> > their young........I
> > mean perfect!  And perfect for one pair may not be
> > perfect for another
> > pair......part of the mystery of the
> ram.........But
> > I will tell you guys
> > that most people don't have the heat anywhere near
> > where they want/like
> > it.............84 - 85 degrees is what they
> prefer. 
> > I have had some spawn
> > successfully at 78-80 but you guys want to see the
> > parents raise
> > them........crank up the heat, put one pair in a
> 20
> > long (minimum 15 or you
> > will likely loose one of the parents), PLENTY of
> > places to hide (small clay
> > pots all over!!!!!!!) and have the patients of a
> > discus breeder.........they
> > will eat their young 900 times just like some
> discus
> > and then bingo.....all
> > is fine.......I have a pair of discus right now
> that
> > have laid and
> > eaten.....ohhhhhhhhhhh, maybe 25 spawns (they
> hatch
> > so I have viable
> > parents)...........I'm gonna beat them!
> > 
> > I know folks.....there are some of you that spawn
> > and raise rams in sewer
> > water at 70 degrees with 50%
> saltwater..........but
> > I want to see it.....;-)
> > 
> > In the past this parental mis-behavior has been
> > blamed on
> > inbreeding.............folks....they were the same
> > in 1965 with F0 (wild)
> > fish.....prettier then than what you see now
> because
> > you don't see real F)'s
> > very often but the same parental
> > problem!!!!!...........I get a kick out of
> > everyone blaming all of the problems of the
> tropical
> > industry on
> > "inbreeding"...........there are problems with
> > inbreeding but not with the
> > parenting of rams .................or
> > angels!...................I have been
> > called "nuts" before, so save your breath
> > folks!!!!!!!  Some times we think
> > just because the fish lay eggs that the conditions
> > must be ok or perfect or
> > anything you want to say...........not
> > true........the discus people deal
> > with this on a daily basis.........why are we so
> > reluctant to put the ram in
> > this category????????
> > 
> > A true F0.....WILD ram is a real site to
> > behold...................question
> > anyone who claims to have real F0 rams.......but
> if
> > you can be sure, buy all
> > you can get, you'll never see anything like
> > it!!!!!!!
> > 
> > Have a super day folks.....................back to
> > school tomorrow!!
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > Mike Jacobs
> > Center for Advanced Technologies
> > High School Math Instructor
> > St. Pete, Fl.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jason Sullivan" <jsull97@earthlink.net>
> > To: <apisto@listbox.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 10:01 PM
> > Subject: RE: blue ram parenting behavior?
> > 
> > 
> > > Another 2 cents...
> > >
> > > A common problem I have seen among my pairs is
> > that otherwise attentive,
> > two
> > > active spawners will raise the fry to 4 or 5
> days
> > then all the fry
> > disappear
> > > overnight.  This has been very frustrating
> because
> > I have some pairs among
> > > that same group that will grow the fry out
> > attentively and then spawn in
> > the
> 
=== message truncated ===


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