Re: blue ram parenting behavior?

[David Sanchez <barbax2@yahoo.com>]

Just a quick note to add to the ram breeding. I have
to disagree about line breeding. Some strains of
Angels will eat their eggs almost everytime while some
do not under exactly the same conditions so I have to
say my experiences in this regard have been very
diffrent. Especialy when we talk Discus a quick visit
to some of the Discus web sites will dispel the myth.
I am not saying that egg eating is 100% a genetic
trait. It is both nature and nurture both have a case
here. as I have often said in the past water quality
and environment have a bigger role in my opinion. but
I beleive we just dont no for sure at this point. My
opinion is that both play a role to some degree.

 However in my opinpion egg eating is not due just a
strains origin

99% is from water quality and poor environment. I am
glad to see my theory on water quality and
environment( Counductivity etc...) catching on and
eliminating the myths with egg eating we have so often
had here in the past. I think sometimes we make things
harder then they are sometimes it makes us feel better
when we breed a fish because we labor about how hard
it was. Is it magic? no way. Rams are easy to breed,
wild rams are a diffrent story slightly but if we
apply the the same rules we can overcome it.

Feed heavily with top quality live foods

water quality pH 5.5 30 us/cm ) DH frequent water
changes ( depending on your monitering of the water
quality check you counductivity until you get a feel

environment floating plants and java moss for plenty
of cover.

We have to be carefull when we tell people you have to
do things a certain way there are many roads to Rome (


I  bred rams in a 5 gallon tank! 
Yes I have bred them at 78 f and they raised the young
most of my pairs are in 10 gallons and they raise
their young



themportant this is we understand the basic principals
and then we can formulate our own system that works
with the resources we have available.

No secrets,no magic anyone can do it and you can apply
this to all Apistos. Truthfully dwarfs are rather easy
to breed and breed inspite of what we do.


One last note to the topic of inbreeding. I have to
say that if wee look at the Discus and Angel fish
people we find that they are all crossing wild fish
back to line bred fish. Folks this is well documented
by many many breeders and is the standard. Again am I
saying line breeding is the cause of all eagg eating
NO
I have some highly in bred Albino Angels they do not
eat eggs but then again I have selected and kept only
the ones with good behaviors such as not eating their
eggs. We as Apisto breeders should not overlook the
effects of line breeding we must breed fish with good
behaviors as well as good color to ignore this is why
European breeders are so far ahead of some of us.

--- Mike Jacobs <mjacobs2@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> Jason and everyone........the trouble, so to speak,
> with rams is that they
> need conditions to be perfect before they will raise
> their young........I
> mean perfect!  And perfect for one pair may not be
> perfect for another
> pair......part of the mystery of the ram.........But
> I will tell you guys
> that most people don't have the heat anywhere near
> where they want/like
> it.............84 - 85 degrees is what they prefer. 
> I have had some spawn
> successfully at 78-80 but you guys want to see the
> parents raise
> them........crank up the heat, put one pair in a 20
> long (minimum 15 or you
> will likely loose one of the parents), PLENTY of
> places to hide (small clay
> pots all over!!!!!!!) and have the patients of a
> discus breeder.........they
> will eat their young 900 times just like some discus
> and then bingo.....all
> is fine.......I have a pair of discus right now that
> have laid and
> eaten.....ohhhhhhhhhhh, maybe 25 spawns (they hatch
> so I have viable
> parents)...........I'm gonna beat them!
> 
> I know folks.....there are some of you that spawn
> and raise rams in sewer
> water at 70 degrees with 50% saltwater..........but
> I want to see it.....;-)
> 
> In the past this parental mis-behavior has been
> blamed on
> inbreeding.............folks....they were the same
> in 1965 with F0 (wild)
> fish.....prettier then than what you see now because
> you don't see real F)'s
> very often but the same parental
> problem!!!!!...........I get a kick out of
> everyone blaming all of the problems of the tropical
> industry on
> "inbreeding"...........there are problems with
> inbreeding but not with the
> parenting of rams .................or
> angels!...................I have been
> called "nuts" before, so save your breath
> folks!!!!!!!  Some times we think
> just because the fish lay eggs that the conditions
> must be ok or perfect or
> anything you want to say...........not
> true........the discus people deal
> with this on a daily basis.........why are we so
> reluctant to put the ram in
> this category????????
> 
> A true F0.....WILD ram is a real site to
> behold...................question
> anyone who claims to have real F0 rams.......but if
> you can be sure, buy all
> you can get, you'll never see anything like
> it!!!!!!!
> 
> Have a super day folks.....................back to
> school tomorrow!!
> 
> Mike
> 
> Mike Jacobs
> Center for Advanced Technologies
> High School Math Instructor
> St. Pete, Fl.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jason Sullivan" <jsull97@earthlink.net>
> To: <apisto@listbox.com>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 10:01 PM
> Subject: RE: blue ram parenting behavior?
> 
> 
> > Another 2 cents...
> >
> > A common problem I have seen among my pairs is
> that otherwise attentive,
> two
> > active spawners will raise the fry to 4 or 5 days
> then all the fry
> disappear
> > overnight.  This has been very frustrating because
> I have some pairs among
> > that same group that will grow the fry out
> attentively and then spawn in
> the
> > same tank again at about three weeks.
> >
> > This may speak to the earlier comments about
> breeding line behaviors.
> > Regardless, the trial and error portion of my
> spawnings to find a pair
> that
> > doesn't eat the fry has cost many a cloud of fry.
> >
> > J Sullivan.
> >
> > =======================
> > Jason Sullivan
> >
> > Wayne, NJ
> > mailto:jsull97@earthlink.net
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > This is the apistogramma mailing list,
> apisto@listbox.com.
> > For instructions on how to subscribe or
> unsubscribe or get help,
> > email apisto-request@listbox.com.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This is the apistogramma mailing list,
> apisto@listbox.com.
> For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe
> or get help,
> email apisto-request@listbox.com.


__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com.
For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
email apisto-request@listbox.com.