Yes Greg, the universe was just there, or has always been there. Time, being defined as the progress of entropy (hmm, evolution not agreeing with entropy or the LAWs of Thermodynamics) began when all matter and energy were released x millions or billions or whatever need be years ago in a huge explosion resulting from the huge amounts of energy compiled when available energy in the universe reached zero and everything collapsed into itself to recycle. By that idea we have no idea how many times time and the universe have started before ours. But don't worry, we're still many years away from 0 Kelvin and the exhaustion of useable energy resulting in the collapse of the universe again. Yes, that was sarcasm. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com.