Re: List of ID corrections was Ap. jurua

["David Soares" <apistodave@bendcable.com>]

Hey randy how was Seattle I had a good time with your friends in Minn
Soft Water Dwarf Cichlids
Uwe Romer & David Soares
14697 S. Bluegrass Ln.
Sisters OR, 97759
Phone/541-549-9350
apistodave@bendcable.com
www.apistogrammaidiots.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Carey" <carey@spacestar.net>
To: <apisto@listbox.com>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: List of ID corrections was Ap. jurua


I highly suspect DNA studies.  I remember reading an old TFH issue where
the researcher examined the DNA of the neon, cardinal, and green neon
tetras -- he concluded that they are not closely related.  Then Weitzman
did a phylogenetic study in which he examined and compared physical traits.
His study provided clear evidence to what we intuitively observe -- that
the three are closely related to each other and far more closely than to
any other species.

The problem seems to be that we do not know yet how to draw good
conclusions from DNA regarding species relationships.  Two siblings (human
or otherwise) will have different DNA.  So if DNA varies that much, how
reliable is it for species-to-species comparisons?!

So I favor phylogenetic study of species-consistent features rather than
today's genetic study.


I can see how, from the perspective of your studies, that you feel
splitting is safer.  But from a different perspective, I feel that lumping
is safer.... If I get an apisto and I don't know the collection data, I
must rely upon the features to help me identify it.  Usually I can do a
pretty good job mapping the fish to one in "the books."  And if two or
three of the newer populations are not visually distinguishable (to the
hobbyist), then I feel it is "safer" to label it with the more standard
name instead of trying to pick one of the "population" names.  As long as
I'm honest with myself and with buyers that I'm a lumper, going with the
"lumped" name is safer and more apt to be correct.  If I must find the
precise match with some location name, then I'm apt to be frustrated and
far too often uncertain.

So if I have a reliable location (or new form) name, I'll keep
it.  Otherwise I'm quite content with a "lumped" name -- an identification
that other knowledgeable aquarists can agree with -- and should reach on
their own study.  I know that this is not the purist approach that an
ichthyologist will take -- but, gee, I'm an aquarist, not a scientist.  If
it has all the features of a eunotus, and it behaves like a eunotus, then
how can one expect more from an aquarist than to call it a eunotus?  And if
there is some very subtle or internal difference that is not observable,
how does that difference affect the aquarist?

--Randy  ( the lumper ;-)



At 10:09 AM 5/13/2002, Mike wrote:
>Right now I prefer to play it safe & split as much as
>possible. As I've said before, if you split & keep 'forms' true, then you
can
>always cross them when you find that 2 forms are the same species. If you
>cross
>2 forms and then discover that they are different species, there's a
>chance that
>you will lose 1 or both pure species in the hobby.
>
>So the question now is whether it is better to be a lumper or a splitter.
>Ongoing DNA studies are pointing to the probability that there are more
>distinct
>species than mere geographic populations of apistos. DNA studies have
already
>shown that the genetic difference between A. caetei from the type locality
>(Rio
>Caeté) and A. cf. caetei (Guamá) from the Rio Guamá are greater than the
>difference in mitochondria between all species of Mbuna in Lake Malawi -
and
>this includes species in different genera!  This is very disturbing to me
>because these 2 forms are found in neighboring streams within a few miles
of
>each other. These 2 caetei-complex fish that are virtually identical when
>preserved. The type form of A. caetei is somewhat more colorful than the
Guamá
>form when alive. Are these 2 forms distinct species? If we say they are
>the same
>species, then do we lump all Malawi Mbuna into a single species?


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