You were right on it Mike about the A. Biteaniata. As soon as I got the hardness down to 20 ppm the pair that never spawns is now sitting on a clutch of eggs. Also, one other thing that has helped with them and my other apistos is daily infusions of live mosquito larvae. Akiddie pool in the backyard that collects rainwater (0 ppm) and produces plenty of live food and cold rainwater for my apistos. I go ahead and throw a small amount of pond water in with the mosquito larvae. The fish love it. On another subject, the old bbs eggs did not hatch at all when new eggs hatched very well. Old eggs were opened 7 years ago rsealed and kept at room temp orhigher, ( I lived in the desert most of that time). ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. apisto-digest@listbox.com also available. Web archives at http://lists.thekrib.com/apisto