Thanks John. I will see if I can find some fish I can use as dither since otocinclus cats living with them do not seem to count as dither to them. I used to have a few pencilfish in a tank with a cacatuoides trio. This worked out nicely to bring the cacatuoides out of hiding. The trio did not breed for me but the pencilfish did. It's amazing that pencilfish fry survived with the great big cacatuoides male patrolling the 20L. Talking about being good to fry, amazingly my meanie trifasciata male is very good with his fry (I thought he might be a bad daddy who eats his babes to get to his female in heat.) His fry are about 1 inch SL now and still living peacefully with their parents. Obviously apistos males are not predators or pedophiles. The males just loose their mind completely when they see a gorgeous mature woman ; ) Tomoko ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. apisto-digest@listbox.com also available. Web archives at http://lists.thekrib.com/apisto Trading at http://blox.dropship.org/mailman/listinfo/apisto_trader