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[William_Vannerson@ama-assn.org: Re: payaminonis???]

Bounced due to HTML.

----- Forwarded message from William Vannerson <William_Vannerson@ama-assn.org> -----

Delivered-To: apisto@listbox.com
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 15:32:44 -0500
From: "William Vannerson" <William_Vannerson@ama-assn.org>
To: <apisto@listbox.com>
Subject: Re: payaminonis???

Mike wrote:
>>>Most cichlids, including apistos, are supplied by commercial collectors
who, rightly, want to keep locations secret to protect sources of
revenues. <<<

1. The location codes don't by themselves give away locations. in that
sense it's a misnomer.  For example, I just purchased several pairs of
Nothoranchius guentheri Zanzabar TAN 97-2.  Except for the "Zanzibar" in
the collection code, you really have no clue on where it was really
collected.  Most killie location codes do not include a place name like
Zanzabar.  TAN 97-2 is the syntax used by Barry Cooper, Ian Sainthouse and
Brain Watters during their 1997 collecting trip to Tanzania, which
included an excursion to the island of Zanzabar.  The final "2" on the
code indicates it was collected at the second site they visited.  So you
would need access to their notes or to any writtings they may have
published in order to trace the collecting site.

Other collectors' location scema is not as easily eciphered as theirs. 
Some will us the initials of the collectors.  Some use local landmarks,
such as "Kribi" or "Mile 29."  Fortunately, most killie collectors do
indeed publish their trip reports so it would be possible for future
colectors to return to the area to recollect the species.  Because of the
small number of killie collectors and zero economic incentive, this
doesn't happen too often and folks actually get excited when it does
becasue many of the original species may not still be available in the

Oddly enough, if you and I went to Zanzibar and collected this fish, we
might asign a location code of Nothoranchius guentheri Zanzabar WV 02-01
(notice I gave you lea billing "W" for Wise).  Let's further assume we
were privy to the exact pol where Barry, Ian and Brian collected from
because thety gave us their GPS readings from their trip.  But becasue we
actually colect on a separate trip, these fish would be considered a
separate instance or location, so killie breeders would keep the two
locations or strains separate. Some would argue that's extream.  But then
who can argue with success?  They have already gone through a period when
such precautions where not followed and many beautiful strains where lost
to the hobby becasue of potental, and inadvertant cross breeding.

2. Sometimes killies come into the hoby as contaminents in commercial
shipments.  Thwe common pactice is to assign a collection code such as "CI
02-1," which stands for commercial import 2002 #1.  Tghis is employed
becasue the actually collecting information is unknown or not revealed by
the distributor.

So ... (and I appologize for such a long winded response)

Apisto-philes could develop a similar schema.  Let's say Julio were to
export these fish as A. cf. payaminonis JM 02-1.  Then if he collects the
other fish in question he could export it under A. cf. payaminonis JM
02-2, and so on.  He doesn't reveal his collecting site but we can
differentiate the two.  Then, later on if scientific scrutany discovers
they are really one and the same, the cf. payaminonis designation is
changed o the correct species name.  Then one would have to determine if
the location code was still applicable or not.  If the aim is not to mix
collor morphs, they stay.  Otherwise the fish goues under the genus
species name only.

My thought is that the location codes would stay most of the time.  We can
already see some conusion and consternation over different wild variations
of Aggies.  BTW, any fish without a location code is known as a sport. 
There are number of these in the killie hobby.  Some have been line breed
to produce color morphs, such as albinos or Gold Aphyosemion australe. 
With a few exceptions, serious kilie breeders will avoid sports, except
for the few established ones, since a killie without a location code may
not breed true or produce viable eggs.  So the market for sports is small.

I would suggest that the ASG could become a clearing house for developing,
maintaining and promoting a suitable Apisto location code schema, or
perhaps another system to track the ever growing number of newly discovered

****  Soap Box Mode Off ***

Bill Vannerson
McHenry, IL

----- End forwarded message -----

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