Thanks for the ideas! I've got the dark substrate (black and dark brown gravel) and black liner on the back of the tank. The tank is in my quiest room. No floating plants yet because I haven't found anything other than hornwort which I don't want. It seems luelingi are not too particular about needing soft acid water so I'm going to worry less about this. I have a lot of plants including swords in the tank but don't really like sand. The debris collects on the surface so you need to clean it more and you can get nasty anaerobic things going on with more than 1" or so as I have proven. They are definitely of spawning age. The female might have spawned once already a few months ago and the reticulosa and rotpunkt I got at the same time (all as juveniles of about the same age) began spawning a few months ago. That might be a good call about raising the tank. It is about 3 feet off the floor right now and the male hides when I approach but comes out when I stoop down. I'm going to go slowly back to my tap water (pH=6/hardness=110 ppm) with a little peat in the filters and pull the female for a bit. I think the 6 bloodfins are enough dithers so I'll pull the 3 serpae tetras also. >~live misquito larvae. frozen igood, live is better. Alright, if anyone cares to answer - what's the EASIEST live food to raise for apistos? I've only ever done guppies before for larger fish. - -Doug Brown debrown@kodak.com