other messages.

["Francis Brian O'Carroll"]

Here are the rest of the messages. They are
all in the "criminal" thread. Please,
no more on this topic on this list. The issues
are important, but don't they belong on a more
general forum such as a newsgroup?

Frank O'Carroll
Apisto Admin

- ------- Forwarded Messages

From: "Jan Busser" <jbusser@worldonline.nl>
To: "apisto Mailing list" <apisto@majordomo.pobox.com>
Subject: Re: I'm gonna be a criminal!!!!
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:37:03 +0200
Message-ID: <01bd8d51$99350ca0$LocalHost@jbusser>
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Gary wrote....
>I certainly haven't heard about it from any other
>Netherlands fishkeepers.

Saturday 30th of may we had a national gathering and that was the place
where the new law was introduced by someone who did fight against it.
There's a very slow and undemocratic thing going on...
There were some organisations founded to inform the gouvernment concerning a
new law (indead in Holland you can buy allmost everything and there was work
to to concerning that point).
While those organisations were talking and thinking, someone else in the
parlement developed this law and now it is done.
I still say there's a hope because:

1) the law has to be approved by the EEG
2) The law seems to be impossible to carry out
3) There will be lots of test-hearings before the law wil be activated.
4) I think there a much too many bird-fish-reptile-incect and ather pet
keepers! to
     keep the people silent!!! (Point of action here!!!)

As I said: The law can be active within three months if everything goes
smoothly but I hope It will take much more time (and a think it will).
The law hasn't been made public yet but I have a copy of the original
article from the parlement (everyone at the gathering 30-5-1998 has one!)
that's why nobody heard about it! (the whole dutch aquarist-society did not
know until now!)

Frederik wrote about positivelists in Germany (which I knew) and Sweden
(which I didn't know).
Well, there is my great hope!
Germany has positive-lists which (by the letter of the law) makes it allmost
impossible to keep a decent aquarium. However: There's no country in our
surrounding where you can find more species than Germany! The law exists
but.... It dos'nt work!
There's the point where the Dutch parlement refused positive-lists I think!
The law did'nt work in Germany and it took a long time to make
positive-lists.
Whatever happens:
Even if I have to go to my meetings in a dark and hidden cellar with a mask
on I head, nobody, really nobady, takes my animals away from me and if
someone is really gonna trie that if it comes to that point. Than I'm
affraid, I am gonna be a real criminal!
We have to fight against this law, together, all the pet-societies!
I'm affraid that the gouvernment is forgetting one huge point:
It's gonna be a desaster for the economy: There will be no pet-shops anymore
(only a couple of stores where people can buy dog-and catfood and maybe
something for there golfish.
We guess that there are about 20.000 people working in
aquaristic-terraristic jobs and they will be all out of work!
When one copany wants to get rid of 20.000 workers, there will be war! And
if they wat it.... they can get it.

My point of view:
Let's make a law where artificial colored asian fish is forbidden. Stop
celling non-natural animals. And stop the import of animals which are not
suitable as pets, animals like Aroana's, arampaima's, Amazone sharks, and
many other animals which are too difficult or just much too big!
I'm hurt when I see some "varieties" of goldvishes and poecilidae which are
just made invalides just to make peaple happy!!! THAT SHOULD BE FORBIDDEN
and not keeping of exotic animals. We all try very, very hard to keep our
fish healthy and give them everyting they need (sometimes even more than
that!) and there's nothing wrong with that!
I'll keep you informed!
Greetings from wonderfull Holland, Jan





- ------- Message 2

Message-Id: <s57264ba.097@gwise.ama-assn.org>
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 08:11:22 -0500
From: William Vannerson <William_Vannerson@ama-assn.org>
To: apisto@majordomo.pobox.com
Subject: Re: I'm gonna be a criminal!!!! -Reply
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>>Also, goldfish are not native to Europe.  They are a variation of
common carp which is truly only native to Asia.<<

The woman must have a daughter or a niece that keeps them.  And,
ironically, goldfish tend to be one of the most abused pets in the hobby. 
Most purchasers don't have the proper equipment or knowledge to take
care of them.  And then they can also end up in the local waterways,
play havoc on the native biology.

Geez.  Politics as usual.

Bill Vannerson
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/william_vannerson



- ------- Message 3

From: jochem@fgbbs.iaf.nl (Jochem 't Hoen)
Date: 01 Jun 98 12:37:02 +0100
Subject: Re: I'm gonna be a criminal!!!!
Message-Id: <bb7_9806011415@fgbbs.iaf.nl>
References:  <f45d8b49.3571cebc@aol.com>
Organization: FGBBS at +31 26 3217041
To: apisto@majordomo.pobox.com


said IDMiamiBob@aol.com to All:

 Ia> Well, Jan, I think it is time to become a political
 Ia> activist.  I suggest you post notices on the doors of your
 Ia> local fish store, pet shop, food store, department store-
 Ia> wherever you can find.  Organize keepers of birds, gerbils,
 Ia> fish, and anyone else you can find.

Jan found one activist allready. I also live in Holland, and I'm not going
to let that stupid law bully my life. My tanks are my greatest hobby, and
I will die without them. For as far as I can see this law is indeed
impossibel. How does someone get rid of all his fish in just three months?
Besides my tank is so natural all my fish start spawning spontaeniously,
and I can't stop them from doing that. Because I can't sell them my tanks
will overcrowd, some wellbeing of animals.........

Luckily I read the first half of the law, and it states that the animals
that are forbidden in article one can be kept, bred and distributed by
authorised organisations. This is probably a clausule for zoos and
universities, but I can imagine that people who make/have or paticipate in
breeding programs could get the same authorisation as well. I hope LINC,
founded by Jan Busser and Nanne de Vos will be such an organisation so I
can continue fishkeeping for at least four years.

By then I probably will have finished my biology-study, and I might get
professionally authorised to keep fish as scientifical objects for
behaviour or something. I wasn't sure in what subject I would specialise
yet, but now I think it will definitely be aquatic ecology or ethology. 

 Ia> Here in the States, and in most democratic nations, such
 Ia> laws can be taken to court.  The people can appeal them, or
 Ia> talk to their representatives about the impact of such a
 Ia> foolish law on the people, on the economy, and on anything
 Ia> else you can think of.

Jan, contact me and Nanne. Just let the NBAT for what it is. I'm not going
to let them bullshit around anymore with other groups of interest. THey
must have been so busy arguing amongst eachother they let another law pass
by. I'm not going to let such a BLIND organisation represent me. It's me
and everybody who wants to participate now against that law, I hope we
will come up with something.

( I thought it had only passed the "tweede kamer" and the "eerste kamer"
still has to decide over it?? )
 
 Ia> If you'd like to move to the US, I can help you find a
 Ia> sponsor.  If you'd like someone to keep your A. tucurui for
 Ia> you, we can also find someone on the list to adopt them for
 Ia> you until you get this new law straightened out. 

Eventually we might all end up there. We can go to Germany for a while,
but the law has allready gone to the European parliament I heard. I'll see
what happens in a few years, but when I'm forced to quit my tank-addiction
I don't see any other way out then moving to your country. I will also be
able to visit some friends then 8-(

Vriendelijke groeten
 
 Jochem 't Hoen
 jochem@fgbbs.iaf.nl 
- - --
jochem@fgbbs.iaf.nl



- ------- End of Forwarded Messages