I have never bred borelli's. Thus far I have successfully bred agassizii, gephyra (the male is absolutely spectacular when he is in the mood), and panduro. I have tried some artificial raising in tanks with only substrate and in tanks with logs and plants. I seem to get varied results with respect to rates of growth. Some of it seems to be random, with a couple of exceptions: 1) Those fry that I have left with their mother and dithers (and, when possible, the father) for their first month+ of development seem to grow quickly -- Loss of fry, however, occurrs at a higher rate. When I leave them with the mother, I feed the mother (and dithers and father) the same foods I normally feed (a varied mix of mostly frozen foods - lots of enriched brine and white worms). The mothers tend to "chew up" some of the food and "spit it back out" for the fry to eat. They also tend to use their fins to direct greater amounts of food toward the fry. I think maybe this behavior has some effect on growth rate. 2) Fry that are fed different foods at different points in their development seem to grow quicker. I use microworms for the first week that they are free-swimming, microworms and BBS during the second week, and mainly BBS thereafter. As soon as the fry are able to eat larger foods (usually around 1/2 inch), I start transitioning them, giving larger food in the morning, BBS in the afternoon, and alternating the evenings until the fry are "willing" to dine solely on the larger foods. Once this is accomplished, the growth rate skyrockets. 3) Fry that are raised in tanks with plants, logs, and other hiding places seem to grow quicker. I do make an effort, however, to identify their favorite hiding places and squirt (I use a syringe) the food near them. 4) Fry that are raised in tanks that get regular water changes (I do 25% twice a week, but was not always quite so religious about it) seem to grow faster. These are the patterns I have noticed in my tanks. I tend to leave the fry with the mother and dithers (and, when possible, the father) for as long as possible, removing either the fry or the adult fish (mom, dad, and dithers) once the fry are 1/2 inch, the mother starts being a danger to the fry, or the mother stops protecting the fry from the dithers. I do suffer from heavy loss of fry but seem to achieve fairly good growth rates and beautiful juveniles. I also raise my juveniles in tanks with a mostly sand substrate, a log or two, and plants (lots of watersprite). I am starting to experiment with using SAE's, pigmy cory's (the little ones that are 1/4 inch when adult), and pigmy suckermouths to help keep the raising tanks cleaner - it seems to be working so far and I am considering trying them in some of my spawning tanks. Bottom line for me is that it is fun... and the greatest part of the fun is the learning process. Everyone seems to have different techniques that work. The process of trying different techniques and finding what works is very rewarding to me. I like the fact that the people on this list are willing to share their experiences (a great resource). I think that sharing those experiences with the goal of not only identifying techniques that work but also the reasons a particular technique works in a certain situation might be a very useful endeavor. --Cliff ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!