About two years ago I collected Biotodoma wavrini near Puerto Ayacucho Venezuela in the Rio Por Venir. The pH was 5.5 and the water was very soft I don't know if Wayne Liebel tested this specific body but the surrounding waters were all around 10 mS. The water was rapid flowing but only a foot deep. It was sand with a few granite boulders and patches of Eleocharis. The wavrini coexisted with Surinam toads, aquatic Mapinari (rattlesnake) and Satanoperca daemon as well as Mesonauta insignis. Later reports gathered from border guards and natives suggested that Pterophyllum altum lived in deeper streches of the same river. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!