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Re: A. norberti "Sunset" (was Apistos)
Tim,
I just looked at the M&B sketch. Where did they come up with that picture???? It looks
nothing like the (preserved) type specimens or the live specimens Staeck shows in his
1996 DATZ article. First, A. payaminonis has extended anterior dorsal fin lappets,
although not as long as those of A. cacatuoides. The lateral band is very narrow on live
specimens & nonexistent on preserved ones. A round average size lateral spot extends
above and below the lateral band. Usually there is a secondary flank spot in front of the
lateral spot. Females have a ventral blotch similar to that seen on macmasteri-group
females. The tail fin is round in juveniles and females, but males' are "subtruncate".
This means that it is a round fin except that the middle rays are squared off. Because of
this the inframarginal orange band is cut off where the tail squares off.
A. payaminonis is sporadically available in Germany through hobbyists, but it isn't very
popular because it has less than spectacular colors.
I have no idea what you have. I would need a more detailed description to really try to
ID it. It's very unlikely that you would get A. payaminonis in with a group of A.
nijsseni/panduro since it comes from an entirely different collecting locality on the
opposite side of the Rio Ucayali in Ecuador & Colombia. I know of no nijsseni-complex
species that has a red line on it (Is it horizontal?). Perhaps it's another new species.
I wouldn't be surprised. The nijsseni-complex is comprised of highly endemic (very
restricted ranges) black water species. Nearly every black water drainage in the Peruvian
Amazon might have its own species.
Mike Wise
Tim Ellis wrote:
> Mike,
>
> This may be a little off subject but, is there any way you can describe A.
> payaminonis for me. The lfs here brought in an order of A.nijsseni that appears to be
> A. pandurini with something else in it that may be A. payaminonis. Very similar to A.
> pandurini and A.nijsseni, but has a red line down the side, and the tail is very
> similar to the sketch in the Mayland & Bork.
>
> Thanks
>
> Tim
>
> Mike & Diane Wise wrote:
>
> > Jota Melgar wrote:
> >
> > > Andy wrote:
> > >
> > > > in a possibly related issue a LFS got in a group of young A.
> > > >norberti "Sunset" today. I had previously thought that A. Sunset was a
> > > >trifasciata like fish.
> > >
> > > A. norberti "Sunset", A. sp. "Sunset", and A. atahualpa are all the same
> > > species. When they were first discovered they were being exported as
> > > norberti "Sunset" and a few exporters still go by that name. I remember
> > > hearing that they were in the nijsseni complex of the cacatuoides group.
> > > I'd like to hear the reason for placing it in the nijsseni complex if
> > > anyone cares to explain.
> >
> > Julio,
> >
> > I think Uwe placed it in the nijsseni-subcomplex because it is so closely related
> > to A. norberti. A. norberti is commonly placed in the nijsseni-subcomplex because
> > it normally has a round caudal fin with a dark and light (not orange) rim along
> > the edge. All members of the cacatuoides-subcomplex have banded lyreate tails.
> > Personally, I look at A. atahualpa & A. norberti as being bridge species
> > intermediate between the two subcomplexes, since they exhibit features
> > characteristic of both. Both A. atahualpa & A. norberti have abdominal stripes,
> > diagnostic of the cacatuoides-subcomplex. Both have the extended anterior dorsal
> > fin lappets found on all cacatuoides-subcomplex, but only one nijsseni-subcomplex
> > species (A. payaminonis). A. norberti has a unique tail pattern that combines
> > features of both sub-complexes - caudal bands (cacatuoides) and dark & light
> > rimmed edge (nijsseni). A. atahualpa is unique in its own way, too. It's the only
> > member of the cacatuoides-complex that has no pattern at all. Both species can
> > develop short lyre tails on exceptional specimens. This tail form is only seen in
> > cacatuoides-subcomplex species. A. payaminonis' is squared off not lyre tailed.
> >
> > Mike Wise
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > As for the aggressiveness of A. atahualpa, I have yet to see any out of the
> > > ordinary. Then again, I haven't seen A. panduro behave as aggressively as
> > > some of you have.
> > >
> > > Julio
> > >
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