Fredrik hit the nail right on the head. It is not that Kullander doesn't like Römer's overall work. Kullander found nothing wrong with Römer's original description of A. mendezi, for example. Kullander simply found the A. atahualpa/panduro paper unacceptable in its printed form. I was given a copy of the original manuscript by Uwe and it is nothing like what got printed! If it had been juried by other taxonomists for a scientific journal it would never have been published the way it was. The problem was caused by several factors. First, Uwe wanted it out as quickly as possible since these descriptions aid enormously in our understanding of the cacatuoides-complex (sensu Staeck and Römer), both the cacatuoides- and nijsseni-subcomplexes. Since most scientific publications have at least a year lead time, Uwe didn't want to wait that long. Secondly, Uwe chose the BB (Journal of the American Cichlid Association) because they would print his article with its color figures quickly, & without charge - many scientific publications charge the author for color prints. Sadly, the ACA had to over-edited the manuscript because they have to limit the length of papers they publish for cost reasons. The ACA accepted the challenge mainly because of the paucity of papers being offered to them at the time. They simply needed material for the BB. This is a sad commentary on our (non-commercial) part of the hobby. (Soap box time) I find too many expert aquarists are becoming too mercenary when it comes to writing articles. They are thinking more about selling articles (money, money, money!) than distributing information where it will help the most - the average hobbyist. Now I have nothing against anyone writing for money in commercial magazines, I've done it - and they do supply the hobbyist with information at a price. I stopped taking TFH because I didn't think I was getting $40 worth of information out of it each year. Now I go to the library and read it. But remember, who puts on all the local, regional, and national conventions? Not the commercial magazines! Who supplies all the monthly informational club meetings? Not the commercial magazines! Without our local & national fish clubs, our hobby would go to Hell in a hand basket very fast. These clubs - especially the national ones who depend on their journals to entice new and keep present members - are finding it harder to compete for good articles with the commercial publishers who offer the Almighty Dollar. Without these organizations we as hobbyists will lose a major source information - especially those wonderfully valuable one-on-one discussions we get so much out of at meetings & conventions. Sure this mailing list, personal email, and web pages help, but what about those who are "electronically challenged". Anyone receive email from David Soares lately? (And if you did, could it be anywhere near as colorful as talking to him in person or over the phone? Would you be able to take the time to read it?). Do we ship these people to some fishy Limbo because they don't have the knowledge and equipment needed? I hope not! So, what to do? Easy. Those of you out there who write exclusively for commercial mags, write one or more good articles for a local or national club each year. For those who are afraid their writing isn't good enough for publication, submit something to your local or national club. You'd be surprised at the response you will get. I hope I didn't step on too many toes, but supplied some food for thought. Mike Wise Erik Olson wrote: > On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Dave Mosley wrote: > > > i wonder what the current feelings are among the scientific > > community about the validity of naming species in "hobbyist > > publications"? > > > > i've witnessed heated p*ssing matches about this in the past... > > Mike Wise pointed out a particularly fun one on Kullander's site > (http://www.nrm.se/ve/pisces/acara/apistogr.html.en) > > "...These small colourful fishes are unfortunately attractive also for > amateurs wishing to publish names on new species (see especially Römer > 1997)." > > Based on that (Uwe Romer is well respected as a professional icthyologist > in the circles I know, even though he has been known to cavort with some > of us low-life hobbyists), I can't even begin to speculate what Sven or > similar-minded folks might do if, say, Apistogramma kolsoni were proposed. > :) > > - Erik > > -- > Erik Olson > erik at thekrib dot com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com. > For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, > email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com. > Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com. 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