The only thing I've found that works, so far 100% of the time, is Fluke Tabs made by Aquarium Products. I have used it with baby Apisto's, in tap and 4.0 pH water without any loses of fish. I don't have many live plants but it doesn't affect Java Moss or Fern, Water Sprite or Najas. It is used at one tab per 10 gallons day one, one tab per 10 gallons day two, and a 50% water change day three. So far the only fish that may have reacted was Cory. pygmaeus, it didn't harm other Corys, even C. hastatus. I have used copper in the past but it needs to be monitored too closely. I tried salt at up to 3 tsp. per gal and that didn't work. I have used Fluke Tabs with a number of fish from livebearers to rainbows to tetras and cichlids. Tom W. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!